Etiquette For contacting a maker about an ordered knife?

[craytab]

This customers order has been refunded.

This is the response you should have posted, not all that other pissy and insulting BS.

 

[Steven65]

Thank you for the bashing gentleman........ it is astonishing how people have no problem criticizing another with only the smallest amount of information given. I have found it wise after 32 years in business to walk in the other person shoes for awhile before doing so.

I have kept in contact with this customer responding to his emails, all except for this last one on Tuesday which I was in the process of doing when I received a heads up about this issue this morning. Yes I have run over on the time frame and have explained the issues as to why and have apologized for it each time.

Evidently few people here have ever dealt with continuing illness in their families and how difficult it is to recover from lost time while doing it.... Especially as a one person business owner. Paying the bills is priority number one and I make no apologies for that....anyone that argues with this is probably still living with their parents.

I have gone to a wait list and do not take money up front unless the customer prefers the option, which I discourage, of ordering on my site that is now 18 months estimated. This is the reason I do not take money up front.


This customers order has been refunded.

Scott Hawley
Furnace Brook Iron Works

Hi Scott and welcome to Bladeforums.

Well done for returning the OP's money to him, but let's be honest Scott the only reason you returned his money was because of this thread.
You will notice I don't use the phrase refund, there was nothing to refund, you never made the knife.

The OP trusted you with his hard earned cash to receive a pre-paid order within the quoted time. You betrayed that trust and now you victim blame.
Many before you have done this....... It never ended well for them, it won't end well for you.

Stop taking money for work you have not done.

Edit.......

Scott I went onto your website...........https://furnace-brook-iron-works.myshopify.com

I could not help but notice your terms and conditions of sale as quoted below....



Interesting business practice..........Caveat Emptor

 

[braillediver]

I have found it wise after 32 years in business to walk in the other person shoes
Scott Hawley
Furnace Brook Iron Works

I found it strange you could post that and not be able to put yourself in the OP's position.

You would of turned this whole episode around and turned it into a positive if you 1) Returned the money without posting 2) Returned the money and apologized here.

Instead what you did was alienate a lot of potential customers. We all understand Life Happens and have a lot of compassion for people struggling with adversity.

 

[JohnWE]

Sure it does. I use small contractors and companies of craftsmen all the time, and that is how I started my construction company. I did custom wood work, built custom cabinets and furniture, and even today if it is one of my remodel projects, I still build a cabinet here and there. The point is, you need to think about your situation as you are telling a shop worn tale that is as old as small business.

Your money is gone. Spent. He probably doesn't have any money to pay his own bills at this point, much less take care of his contractual obligations. You are seeing new knives posted in an attempt to generate some income to pay household obligations, and probably money to get materials to pay for those clients not nearly as patient as you.

If I have heard it once, I have heard it (maybe literally) a thousand times in the last 40+ years of business. "My wife and me are having a rough patch; we had some unexpected expenses and should be on track soon; my wife/kids/mom/dad is sick/injured/dying (sometimes family members die several times if I know them long enough); my wife spent the money; could I borrow some money?; no one wants to work; my material shipment got screwed up; I made your project but it wasn't 100% and you know my standards, I had to start over; it was too hot/cold to work... add another couple of thousand excuses and you will get the picture.

Good craftsmen are notoriously poor businessmen. I have mentored several over the years and only on remains in business. And if they adopt the tone of a successful, eccentric artist and announce that "the project will be finished when it is finished", they are doomed. The hardest thing for small business men/women to learn is how to be a good business person. Unfortunately, their learning curve comes not only at expense to themselves, but at a great cost to their clientele. Money disappears, promises are broken, people go into hiding, threats are made, and at the end of the small business a lot of money is owed, trusting people have been screwed. Oh blah de, blah da. SSDD.

So treat this guy like the professional businessman he represented himself to be when he gladly took your money. Get your money back however you can. Credit card resolution period expired? Let them know the knife was NEVER delivered, and that this isn't a warranty issue. They might launch and investigation and bar him from using that host card (VISA/Mastercard) until they are finished. If others have filed complaints, they may suspend him completely. VISA/Mastercard won't do anything? Contact his state's Attorney General and file paperwork showing he is running a Ponzi scheme. Make sure you CC the city attorney and him as well. Some small claims courts are now doing ZOOM meetings, so you don't have to leave the house to go to court. You have a lot of avenues to follow.

And while you are thinking "man, that sounds like a lot of work", you might find that the maker will be a lot more amenable to a solution if he finds you have had enough. He might just take the money he is making from his current production offerings and pay you back instead of himself. Plus, you might be the guy that saves a lot of other trusting folks from pissing away their money down his rat hole.

As always... just my 0.02. Ok, maybe 0.05...

The above may be the best and the most accurate description of how things can go bad when dealing with small businesses and wanna be knifemakers. The only thing missing is the oft used ” computer issues” excuse.

 

[Furnace Brook Iron]

This is the response you should have posted, not all that other pissy and insulting BS.

This is the response you should have posted, not all that other pissy and insulting BS.

Hi Scott and welcome to Bladeforums.

Well done for returning the OP's money to him, but let's be honest Scott the only reason you returned his money was because of this thread.
You will notice I don't use the phrase refund, there was nothing to refund, you never made the knife.

The OP trusted you with his hard earned cash to receive a pre-paid order within the quoted time. You betrayed that trust and now you victim blame.
Many before you have done this....... It never ended well for them, it won't end well for you.

Stop taking money for work you have not done.

Absolute nonsense. This gentleman had wanted his knife and never requested a refund, if he had I would have given to him.....if you would have read it correctly you would have seen that. And if you had read my response correctly you would have seen that I do not take money up front any longer unless the customer chooses this option which, I discourage. All of this is clearly stated on my site if you had taken the effort to read, instead of fabricating a demented scenario.

I had been in contact with this customer as I stated and I do not recall YOU being part of it......or seeing you in my shop while I work for that matter.

I will not be responding to any further comments here. I had joined this forum yesterday, which I will be leaving now...to defend myself when the only one here of any worth emailed and told me about this thread. Even the OP did not give me the time to respond to his email and hour earlier and posting my name, which is profoundly inappropriate unless both sides are present.

Simply astonishing .....the opinions of arm chair complainers is of no worth other to themselves.

 

[Steven65]

Absolute nonsense. This gentleman had wanted his knife and never requested a refund, if he had I would have given to him.....if you would have read it correctly you would have seen that. And if you had read my response correctly you would have seen that I do not take money up front any longer unless the customer chooses this option which, I discourage. All of this is clearly stated on my site if you had taken the effort to read, instead of fabricating a demented scenario.

I had been in contact with this customer as I stated and I do not recall YOU being part of it......or seeing you in my shop while I work for that matter.

I will not be responding to any further comments here. I had joined this forum yesterday, which I will be leaving now...to defend myself when the only one here of any worth emailed and told me about this thread. Even the OP did not give me the time to respond to his email and hour earlier and posting my name, which is profoundly inappropriate unless both sides are present.

Simply astonishing .....the opinions of arm chair complainers is of no worth other to themselves.

Scott I went onto your website...........https://furnace-brook-iron-works.myshopify.com

I could not help but notice your terms and conditions of sale as quoted below....

Interesting business practice..........Caveat Emptor

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Absolute nonsense. This gentleman had wanted his knife and never requested a refund, if he had I would have given to him.....if you would have read it correctly you would have seen that. And if you had read my response correctly you would have seen that I do not take money up front any longer unless the customer chooses this option which, I discourage. All of this is clearly stated on my site if you had taken the effort to read, instead of fabricating a demented scenario.

I had been in contact with this customer as I stated and I do not recall YOU being part of it......or seeing you in my shop while I work for that matter.

I will not be responding to any further comments here. I had joined this forum yesterday, which I will be leaving now...to defend myself when the only one here of any worth emailed and told me about this thread. Even the OP did not give me the time to respond to his email and hour earlier and posting my name, which is profoundly inappropriate unless both sides are present.

Simply astonishing .....the opinions of arm chair complainers is of no worth other to themselves.

OP just stated the situation and asked for advice on how to handle it. Which we then gave our opinion of. He did'nt even name you until asked, so don't blame him for your problems.

 

[Quiet]

Absolute nonsense. This gentleman had wanted his knife and never requested a refund, if he had I would have given to him.....if you would have read it correctly you would have seen that. And if you had read my response correctly you would have seen that I do not take money up front any longer unless the customer chooses this option which, I discourage. All of this is clearly stated on my site if you had taken the effort to read, instead of fabricating a demented scenario.

I had been in contact with this customer as I stated and I do not recall YOU being part of it......or seeing you in my shop while I work for that matter.

I will not be responding to any further comments here. I had joined this forum yesterday, which I will be leaving now...to defend myself when the only one here of any worth emailed and told me about this thread. Even the OP did not give me the time to respond to his email and hour earlier and posting my name, which is profoundly inappropriate unless both sides are present.

Simply astonishing .....the opinions of arm chair complainers is of no worth other to themselves.

It seems to me that what you actually dislike is having been found out. Interesting.

 

[Triton]

<Shakes head>. Scott, you aren't the victim here. As previously noted by another poster you need to consider this from a customer perspective. You have their money, you have delivered no product ( in fact have repeatedly missed deadlines) and your comms have not been proactive. Yes, I understand life happens. When it does that is the time to over communicate. You should have been reaching out to the customer at each delay to let him know what was going on. A periodic status update would have been wise, both to reassure the customer and to hold yourself accountable.

Coming in here angrily was also a terrible idea even if it is how you feel. A calm explanation owning the problem without excuses would have probably have won you more customers. As it is you have undoubtedly lost some and thanks to internet searches you will lose others each time this thread pops up.

 

[midnight flyer]

Sadly, his responses confirm all that was expected. Probably the least intelligent thing he did was cast dispersions on the members of Blade Forums. Personally, and as a businessman, I have NEVER, EVER seen a more understanding or forgiving group of people when it comes to dealing with knife makers.

My world is completely different. How many here would hesitate to bring legal action against a contractor that never delivered a finished project, took off with your money, fell completely out of contact and in fact made it a point to avoid you, and you could easily see that he was still in business and taking in new work with other clients? If I took money or even signed a contract and disappeared for months it would be dire consequences, the very least would be my reputation.

And the whining about personal circumstances... who doesn't have that? Who on this board has not faced difficult or nearly impossible situations concerning the ones we love? When you are in business you learn the difficult lesson that life goes on, including yours. The most important lesson is that because you are in pain or are getting screwed you do not have the right to pass that on to your clients. Some of my contemporaries never learned that and they have paid a healthy price for it.

To me the price of a custom knife of up to $1,000 I would consider a very modest repair. That's probably all were talking about here if that much. But even at a small amount like $1,000 for repair I have to make sure that my repairs are done to industry standards using the correct materials and also provide a warranty against failure. While I appreciate the artistry of knife making it is almost like when I build a cabinet. I take the cabinet over, install it, collect my money and go on. I can build the cabinet at night, on the weekends or during a holiday. Lots of flexibility in a one-off product.

In a period of 8 years I lost my father to a lengthy battle with cancer, and then another 18 months after that my mom started her battle with Alzheimer's. I was the primary caregiver and it was nothing short of hell and went on for a few years. Finally, it was over. 18 months later my mother-in-law wound up with a Alzheimer's like disease, and I wound up taking care of her medical needs and personal needs as well, including modifying the house so she would not hurt herself. The brother-in-law that could have been of some help was tending to his wife who was dying of breast cancer. I loved both of those two ladies as much as any family member. I lost them both within 10 days of each other. It was awful and my wife suffered terribly as well.

During that time I still answered my phone when I could and took care of my business. I paid people extra to help me along, and took on no new work for a while. In 40 plus years of business for myself the year I lost my mom was the only time I lost money as I paid for everything out of pocket so that no one that was associated with me was damaged.

So the whole "you should feel sorry for me because bad things have happened to me and you just don't understand" it's just another box to check off on a long list of well used excuses.

Things for really, really rough for me for a while but I never lost sight of the fact that there were/are plenty of people that are in much more dire straits than me. And still, their lives go on as well.

I think a great footnote to his post was the page posted showing his new policy of no refunds on customs, and his inability to stand behind his work by saying that refunds on a built knife are at his discretion. Perfect; now he can get even with everybody.

 

[IXLR8]

Guy apologizes, refunds members money. Still not good enough. The bandwagon jumpers opinions must be heard. The holier than thou comments are amusing. Probably coming from people who have done much worse things in life but will never admit it. Op asks for opinions, gets his opinions. The sellers refunds money with an apology. Between those two, it's their business. Not any of the rest of yours. And now the latest episode of " lets pretend to be perfect when we know we're not and bash the knife maker" Certainly the admins will look upon us as a collective group of "goody two shoes" and take our side which gives us the perfect opportunity to kiss butt like there's no tomorrow in our quest to be preferred members of the blade forums community.
How do any of you know what the maker is dealing with? You sit there and pretend like you have all the answers to all the questions, while somehow your opinions and bashing is the key to world peace. What if.........just what if, this man has a sickly or dying mother or father? Anyone bother to ask? If this were my case, job, all knives, anything else I have can go straight to hell and burn in eternity. Realize this. We're all typists on the internet who never have to face the man we attack. How courageous!!!!!!! And now , on top of it all.........we want to dictate how the man runs his business! Why not just stop now. Or do you have a point to prove by trying to harm others income in a time in history where we are all facing high inflation, economic troubles, Supply chain disruptions, possible food shortages and a pin head administration chomping at the bit to start up World War III? But what's important? Our opinions on the internet must be heard! We must bash in the name of " Holier than thou."
The three stooges couldn't have done it any better/worse. And probably have done it with more class and tact.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn Fan]

I IXLR8 , Based on your posting in this thread I believe you understand what GBU is for, and one of the one things that gets fellow members upset is someone screwing another member. This thread was started about an issue that has all of the tell tale signs (Pre-payment & lack of communication) that generally do not end well.

When things go this direction and communication is lacking advice is rather blunt, and "class and tact" historically get them no where. The MOD's and Members do their damnedest to get a positive outcome, and at times members posts may be a bit overzealous, but past history shows it determines the intent of the purported wrongdoer rather quickly.

In closing, thanks for your Holier then Thou /Monday Morning Quarter Back/ Back Seat Driver input.

 

[SharpByCoop]

I wrote to Scott (Furnace Brook Iron) when I saw this derailing and figured he probably didn't know about it. He didn't. (I had never heard of him or his shop, BTW)

He thanks me for steering him here in a polite email, and he took care of the ACTUAL problem pronto.

I've been around. I've seen makers go sour. I've seen bad business. Myself, I try to RIGHT THE WRONGS first.

Yeah, he could handled it with more intention. But he posted within MINUTES of the problem being identified. I'd be in a huff, too.

(Who here has regretted how they handled themselves at some critical point? Well, I have. Guilty as charged.)

So, anyway, I IXLR8 swings to the far left, and I appreciate I'm not the ONLY one who wants to cut him some slack. He's not wrong.

So, let this slide. Don't buy from him. His ethic doesn't align with many here, yet he's staying busy. And no one else has EVER posted negative about him.

I'm simply please the OP got what he deserved and I that made a POSITIVE difference to two people.

Till next time. They'll be others.... HA!

Coop

 

[IXLR8]

I IXLR8 , Based on your posting in this thread I believe you understand what GBU is for, and one of the one things that gets fellow members upset is someone screwing another member. This thread was started about an issue that has all of the tell tale signs (Pre-payment & lack of communication) that generally do not end well.

When things go this direction and communication is lacking advice is rather blunt, and "class and tact" historically get them no where. The MOD's and Members do their damnedest to get a positive outcome, and at times members posts may be a bit overzealous, but past history shows it determines the intent of the purported wrongdoer rather quickly.

In closing, thanks for your Holier then Thou /Monday Morning Quarter Back/ Back Seat Driver input.

You're most welcomed , Kind Sir.
I'd like to take this opportunity in my ( non award winning, Holier than thou , speech) to introduce myself. I am IXLR8. How are you doing?
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for your , shall we say, " lecture? Nice. I can see you take this very seriously. Kudo's to you sir.
I take it that your name is,,,,,,,wait let me think about this! Foghorn Leghorn? As it were? You and yours are no longer policing the site. It appears that the situation has been resolved.
Are you defending this, ahhh, bashing that , well, " those you defend," were doing? Are you defending their and yours inalienable Right to take it upon yourselves in attempt to tarnish and mans reputation?
Now I can tell by your reply to me that you feebly believe that your're a member of Mensa here, and the voice of reason. You're not.
So answer the question.

 

[Triton]

How do any of you know what the maker is dealing with?

Already addressed in the post above yours. Pragmatically that shouldn't be the customer's problem. Realistically the maker can only do what he can do, but if he absolutely cannot maintain his side of the bargain he should proactively tell the customer that and provide the refund.

You sit there and pretend like you have all the answers to all the questions, while somehow your opinions and bashing is the key to world peace.

Now I think you are just launching into hyperbole, I don't think anyone here is putting themselves on a pedestal, but we have all seen this movie before and usually it doesn't have a happy ending. I'm curious as to why you have nominated yourself as defender of the downtrodden bladesmith? There's a certain irony in that since by your own metric its equally none of your business.

 

[Triton]

I wrote to Scott (Furnace Brook Iron) when I saw this derailing and figured he probably didn't know about it. He didn't. (I had never heard of him or his shop, BTW)

He thanks me for steering him here in a polite email, and he took care of the ACTUAL problem pronto.

I've been around. I've seen makers go sour. I've seen bad business. Myself, I try to RIGHT THE WRONGS first.

Yeah, he could handled it with more intention. But he posted within MINUTES of the problem being identified. I'd be in a huff, too.

(Who here has regretted how they handled themselves at some critical point? Well, I have. Guilty as charged.)

So, anyway, I IXLR8 swings to the far left, and I appreciate I'm not the ONLY one who wants to cut him some slack. He's not wrong.

So, let this slide. Don't buy from him. His ethic doesn't align with many here, yet he's staying busy. And no one else has EVER posted negative about him.

I'm simply please the OP got what he deserved and I that made a POSITIVE difference to two people.

Till next time. They'll be others.... HA!

Coop

It's good that he addressed the actual problem, it would have been better if he had communicated with his customer. A problem prevented is better than a problem solved.

It was foolish to come here and attack the community, but I expect that will have its own reward as will the refund policy posted.

 

[IXLR8]

Already addressed in the post above yours. Pragmatically that shouldn't be the customer's problem. Realistically the maker can only do what he can do, but if he absolutely cannot maintain his side of the bargain he should proactively tell the customer that and provide the refund.



Now I think you are just launching into hyperbole, I don't think anyone here is putting themselves on a pedestal, but we have all seen this movie before and usually it doesn't have a happy ending. I'm curious as to why you have nominated yourself as defender of the downtrodden bladesmith? There's a certain irony in that since by your own metric its equally none of your business.

Omg.
lol
Really?
Speaking of going hyperbole, lol.
What?
WAIT!!!!!!!!! Now instead of attacking the knife maker...............................................................BRACE YOURSELVES! Ladies and gentlemen, I am now the target.
Wonderful. It worked!
See what I mean? When they dive in, they go for the throat.
While it may be true, as screen name "Triton" espouses , that, in fact, it is equally " none of my business" Nor his. Equally.
Now while we're here at it, playing word games. Shall we continue, my good man?
Perhaps some tasty Grey Poupon would sway your reply?

on full display

 

[Triton]

Omg.
lol
Really?
Speaking of going hyperbole, lol.
What?

One doesn't go hyperbole. One either uses it or not. I think the post was reasonably clear. You did not actually answer the question.

 

[Triton]

Omg.
lol
Really?
Speaking of going hyperbole, lol.
What?
WAIT!!!!!!!!! Now instead of attacking the knife maker...............................................................BRACE YOURSELVES! Ladies and gentlemen, I am now the target.
Wonderful. It worked!
See what I mean? When they dive in, they go for the throat.
While it may be true, as screen name "Triton" espouses , that, in fact, it is equally " none of my business" Nor his. Equally.
Now while we're here at it, playing word games. Shall we continue, my good man?
Perhaps some tasty Grey Poupon would sway your reply?

on full display

I guess you think you are scoring points in some obscure game? Congratulations I guess? Your attempts to be condescending are mildly amusing but I wouldn't flatter yourself about your own cleverness too much.

I'm not the one that suggested that everyone should mind their own business... While inserting myself into something that I claimed was nobody else's business. Again I'm still curious, why did you come out of the wood work to defend this guy in particular?

This forum is designed precisely to reward good actors, punish bad ones and apply community pressure to hopefully create positive results. Sometimes it works, sometimes not but that's why it's here.

As an aside you do realize that every post in this thread makes it more visible on the web and not just in this forum? I'm perfectly okay with that but I wonder if you are?

 

[IXLR8]

I guess you think you are scoring points in some obscure game? Congratulations I guess? Your attempts to be condescending are mildly amusing but I wouldn't flatter yourself about your own cleverness too much.

I'm not the one that suggested that everyone should mind their own business... While inserting myself into something that I claimed was nobody else's business. Again I'm still curious, why did you come out of the wood work to defend this guy in particular?

This forum is designed precisely to reward good actors, punish bad ones and apply community pressure to hopefully create positive results. Sometimes it works, sometimes not but that's why it's here.

As an aside you do realize that every post in this thread makes it more visible on the web and not just in this forum? I'm perfectly okay with that but I wonder if you are?

Yeah you're right. I'm the one who suggested that everyone mind their own business.
I'm just curious. Are you one of those people who want to slap wrists and become a moderator? Because your life is the internet?
You think I give two hardy shits what you have to say? Do you really think that? You're defending a bashing after an issue has been resolved. Based on what you just wrote, you violated your own rules of engagement.
Why I came out of the woodwork is none of your business. I do not know what might make you think that it is.
But allow me to answer your question: There are many reasons, but mainly, because I felt like it. Good enough? Or need I explain further? Oh wait. Do you and yours dictate that too, during your bashing campaigns? If so , pardon me , sir.
Like I said. I felt like it. No other reason. You think maybe you can control that? Try.
Right about now, I'm planning to have a field day with you, if the mods allow it. And they should. I mean think about it. I'm not the attacker. I am the attack-E. I think this should be let to go as reasonable banter. But, alas, I am not a mod and I do not speak for all, just one.
Now please do continue to prove my point. Afterall, you've done such a fine job, to this point.
Sincerely,
Your huckleberry