Evaluation knives and bias

[db]

CuriousOne, a bias can show itself on a knife or knife brand even if never used by the poster. Example I have a fairly strong bias to be more critical with Cliff’s posts, comments, and or motives. Another current poster shows an overt bias to ThomasW, Kershaw, and many other people and methods that don’t mostly agree with him, or question him Regardless of the knife or subject. These biases show up in the reviews more often than not recently. Good or bad? You decide.

 

[CuriousOne]

CuriousOne, a bias can show itself on a knife or knife brand even if never used by the poster. Example I have a fairly strong bias to be more critical with Cliff’s posts, comments, and or motives. Another current poster shows an overt bias to ThomasW, Kershaw, and many other people and methods that don’t mostly agree with him, or question him Regardless of the knife or subject. These biases show up in the reviews more often than not recently. Good or bad? You decide.

Db - Thanks. Makes sense now...

 

[thombrogan]

it is always the case that experiment and reporting is not a perfect process, it is more of a continuous refinement. The most important part is the willingness to accept the need for change and constant checks on methods by independent outsiders.

I'm not sure constant outside auditing is always necessary or desireable. If you're doing something currently unknown, how will they know if you're doing it right or wrong? Otherwise, I do agree with what you wrote right there.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It is rare that you are doing something completely unique and unrelated to what anyone else is doing, especially with modern communication methods. It does not have to be an exact duplicate of the work, but you should always be checking for confirmation of results and experimental method. Talk to people doing similar work, learn from them.

-Cliff

 

[Kohai999]

What was the point of what I was saying?

I not only think that Cliff might have bias, but that he also has an agenda. If it is served by/for specific knife companies, it would not surprise me.

I think that Cliff has also done more harm to BladeForums and the knife community at large than accusations of impartiality or having an agenda, and I don't know why.

I don't understand a lot of what he says, and many of you don't either, but don't want to appear dumb by asking difficult or pointed questions.

I have a bias.....a number of them actually. I prefer stain resistant steels for most of my knives that I use. I don't care for patina, rust/oxidation or pitting.

Thomas W. is one of my better friends, so I have a natural inclination to want to promote Kershaw. That said, Les DeAsis is a good acquaintance, and so is Sal Glesser. If any of these companies make something that rocks, I say good things about it. If Kershaw makes something average, I don't say anything, and if it sucks, I post that, too.

Integrity and transparency of actions(to a large degree, it depends upon the audience) matter, just about more than anything to me. I try not to speak about things that I don't know about.

Above all, I try not to accuse people or companies of hype or outright lies until I know something about them, and the product, ie: a BLATANT attack on the presentation of FFD2 that Cliff started some months ago.

Is Cliff in the employ of any knife companies? That would be the best question of all.

Cliff, do you accept any money or other goods in exchange for the work that you do on your cutleryscience website?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[OilMan]

You know we don't agree on this STeven but that was very well put regardless.:thumbup:

 

[gator68]

Is Cliff in the employ of any knife companies? That would be the best question of all.

Cliff, do you accept any money or other goods in exchange for the work that you do on your cutleryscience website?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Repeated since Cliff has said he has STeven on ignore.

 

[Carl64]

I not only think that Cliff might have bias, but that he also has an agenda.

OK, so what is the "agenda"?

If you think Cliff says something crazy or stupid, just say so. Don't form conspiracy theories over it. Everything someone gets into an argument they think the other guy is working for someone. It's not just in here, it's all over the world, on and off the internet.

I think that Cliff has also done more harm to BladeForums and the knife community at large than accusations of impartiality or having an agenda, and I don't know why.

You don't know why he has whatever agenda, or you don't know why you think so? And what exactly is this "harm?" Have I been harmed without knowing it?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

gator68, no, I do not accept money or goods. It costs me money to host the website and significant amounts to evaluate the knives. None of the knives that are sent to me for a review are kept and I have paid duty on them and then shipping on them to send them to someone else, often multiple times.

OK, so what is the "agenda"?

Learn, share the knowledge, encourage other people to do the same.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Are you sure it's not to keep you rolling in Coors (Spyderco), Carling Black Label (Busse), and curried momo pastries (Himalayan Imports)? There's a rumor on the internet that you only pretend to hate Jerry's choice in beer as a chauvenistic homage to your Vinalandian heritage while secretly consuming in casks of CBL, Pabst, and Keystone.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Thom it is a good thing we are friends, I only drink Guinness and real men do not eat pastries.

-Cliff

 

[A. G. Russell]

Lots of my friends here and most of them seem to be pressing on Cliff. I have had few contacts with Cliff but I feel I must come in here. I sent several of my Deer Hunters to Cliff a few years ago and got them back, at his expense, in at least 4 pieces each. He wrote a fine review that probably gained me dozens of sales. No money changed hands and I still wonder why he needed to break up those blades on such lightweight knives.

Everybody has some bias. I have a bias for the troops, even the hard nosed ex gunny who says I am killing the young ones by selling them knives less than 7" blade length. I have a bias for the old stuff and for almost anything with an edge.

Yes I read Cliff and sometimes think that he seems to favor this maker or that. So What? Cliff is not a god that must be distroyed, he is a man with opinions. I don't like everything that he says, in fact, I really dislike some of it.

I see friends of mine filling their stomachs with acid when they should be enjoying finding new knives and new friends.

 

[thombrogan]

Thom it is a good thing we are friends, I only drink Guinness and real men do not eat pastries.

Okay, so the next time you're in the states, I'll get some reduced-alcohol beer (Guinness Extra Stout is 3.4% per volume) for you and not worry that you'll drink my malt liquor or scarf down all of the curried momos. You do eat Nepali food, though, right? The non-pastry kind like curried goat and curried chicken?

I see friends of mine filling their stomachs with acid when they should be enjoying finding new knives and new friends.

:thumbup:

 

[gunmike1]

Okay, so the next time you're in the states, I'll get some reduced-alcohol beer (Guinness Extra Stout is 3.4% per volume) for you and not worry that you'll drink my malt liquor or scarf down all of the curried momos.

To strengthen up your Guiness while actually making malt liquor palatable, try this trick I learned in Richmond, Ca., the town I grew up in, which is a tough, urban environment. You take a 40 oz. of Olde English 800 malt liquor, drink it to the top of the label, then pour in one bottle of Guiness. Then you are mixing 7.5% malt liquor with the measly 3.4% of the Guiness to get quite a buzz and a decent tasting combination. In Guiness' defense it does double as a good meal due to it's thick nature, but it isn't for the "drink for effect" types.

Other good ghetto concoctions include Thunderbird wine and Kool Aid, and of course jungle juice, basically any concoction of cheap booze and fruit juice you can think of poured into a large cooler. Luckily I grew out of drinking those things (save a 40 oz. of Olde English a couple months ago for old times sake, and to remind myself why I don't drink that stuff anymore), and stick with potent micro brews and good Vodka for the most part, on the times I do indulge myself a few drinks.

Mike

 

[gator68]

gator68, no, I do not accept money or goods. It costs me money to host the website and significant amounts to evaluate the knives. None of the knives that are sent to me for a review are kept and I have paid duty on them and then shipping on them to send them to someone else, often multiple times.

Learn, share the knowledge, encourage other people to do the same.

-Cliff

Cliff, this is exactly what I thought you would say. Thanks for breaking all those knives!

 

[Kohai999]

Learn, share the knowledge, encourage other people to do the same.

-Cliff

Gator, you can quote this one too.

Cliff.....thanks for addressing the question concerning the possibility that you might be in the pocket of some in the cutlery industry...very direct of you.

How does your statement above of "Learn, share the knowledge, encourage other people to do the same." jibe with the absolutely accusatory tone that you took in the FFD2 thread? That does not make sense.

A.G.....yes, we are amigos. We all love knives, but some of us have agendas that are so far at opposite ends of the spectrum that a belly full of acid is what we get for the pursuit of our love. There are some people in the business that suck the life and love out of the room, and they don't care one way or the other.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[J85909266]

Lots of my friends here and most of them seem to be pressing on Cliff. I have had few contacts with Cliff but I feel I must come in here. I sent several of my Deer Hunters to Cliff a few years ago and got them back, at his expense, in at least 4 pieces each. He wrote a fine review that probably gained me dozens of sales. No money changed hands and I still wonder why he needed to break up those blades on such lightweight knives.

Everybody has some bias. I have a bias for the troops, even the hard nosed ex gunny who says I am killing the young ones by selling them knives less than 7" blade length. I have a bias for the old stuff and for almost anything with an edge.

Yes I read Cliff and sometimes think that he seems to favor this maker or that. So What? Cliff is not a god that must be distroyed, he is a man with opinions. I don't like everything that he says, in fact, I really dislike some of it.

I see friends of mine filling their stomachs with acid when they should be enjoying finding new knives and new friends.

:thumbup: Great post.

 

[Dog of War]

Once in a while, you run into a post worth repeating:

Lots of my friends here and most of them seem to be pressing on Cliff. I have had few contacts with Cliff but I feel I must come in here. I sent several of my Deer Hunters to Cliff a few years ago and got them back, at his expense, in at least 4 pieces each. He wrote a fine review that probably gained me dozens of sales. No money changed hands and I still wonder why he needed to break up those blades on such lightweight knives.

Everybody has some bias. I have a bias for the troops, even the hard nosed ex gunny who says I am killing the young ones by selling them knives less than 7" blade length. I have a bias for the old stuff and for almost anything with an edge.

Yes I read Cliff and sometimes think that he seems to favor this maker or that. So What? Cliff is not a god that must be distroyed, he is a man with opinions. I don't like everything that he says, in fact, I really dislike some of it.

I see friends of mine filling their stomachs with acid when they should be enjoying finding new knives and new friends.

Thanks for bringing some mature perspective to this discussion, A.G. Like you, I don't enjoy seeing people I consider to be friends with a common interest becoming upset over something like this. Like you say, "So what?" We all have biases, and usually they're pretty obvious.

 

[STR]

"Learn, share the knowledge, encourage other people to do the same."

Hi Steven. The above statement is good in theory and perhaps something we all should strive for but it is only good if you practice it.

Not speaking about you of course Steven but its not exactly following this theory when you learn and share others knowledge as your own rather than present it for what it is or by name dropping what someone once said at one time in an obscure manual, or forum without direct links to the place or places that it was stated with quotes by that person (Cashen, Fowler, Meyer or whoever else it may be.)or from just name dropping one last name that could for that matter be anyone. It would of course be best if the names mentioned spoke for themselves and often times what we find when they are involved is that they were mis quoted because it is really nothing more than hearsay and third party information or as the case could be since we don't really know, misinformation or not the complete story when you cannot verify the information first hand. When name dropping and facts without reference are presented simply to get one up on an arugment for arugments sake it is no longer an open discussion is it?

You cannot really claim to be encouraging others to learn much if you do not recognize anyone elses input as valid, relevant or knowledgeable with comments like lies, hype, false or absurd everytime someone else makes a comment based on their experience or understanding except the ones you yourself believe and name drop, and only when named by you do they rate and of course totally disregarding those same names when their sayings or methods, statements or experience is mentioned by someone else. Then suddenly it is not kosher.

Nor can you really be said to encourage much in the way of learning if you only subscribe to the belief that any reader can only know the truth without hype if you follow one model, or one gospel theirs downplaying all others while disregarding all the others as nothing more than hype. This is not an open discussion when it happens like this. It is a closed not open for further debate issue and an attitude of superiority that should say quite loudly to anyone reading that anything read should be seen as simply opinion, hearsay or perhaps a distinct bias for whatever reasons.

But of course all the above is just my opinion without mentioning any names. Take it for what its worth.

STR

 

[J85909266]

Hi Steven. The above statement is good in theory and perhaps something we all should strive for but it is only good if you practice it.

Not speaking about you of course Steven but its not exactly following this theory when you learn and share others knowledge as your own rather than present it for what it is or by name dropping what someone once said at one time in an obscure manual, or forum without direct links to the place or places that it was stated with quotes by that person (Cashen, Fowler, Meyer or whoever else it may be.)or from just name dropping one last name that could for that matter be anyone. It would of course be best if the names mentioned spoke for themselves and often times what we find when they are involved is that they were mis quoted because it is really nothing more than hearsay and third party information or as the case could be since we don't really know, misinformation or not the complete story when you cannot verify the information first hand. When name dropping and facts without reference are presented simply to get one up on an arugment for arugments sake it is no longer an open discussion is it?

You cannot really claim to be encouraging others to learn much if you do not recognize anyone elses input as valid, relevant or knowledgeable with comments like lies, hype, false or absurd everytime someone else makes a comment based on their experience or understanding except the ones you yourself believe and name drop, and only when named by you do they rate and of course totally disregarding those same names when their sayings or methods, statements or experience is mentioned by someone else. Then suddenly it is not kosher.

Nor can you really be said to encourage much in the way of learning if you only subscribe to the belief that any reader can only know the truth without hype if you follow one model, or one gospel theirs downplaying all others while disregarding all the others as nothing more than hype. This is not an open discussion when it happens like this. It is a closed not open for further debate issue and an attitude of superiority that should say quite loudly to anyone reading that anything read should be seen as simply opinion, hearsay or perhaps a distinct bias for whatever reasons.

But of course all the above is just my opinion without mentioning any names. Take it for what its worth.

STR

:thumbup: Another fantastic post. I have certainly taken notice of this as well when these debates erupt. You really articulated the problem well without over-exaggerating it and blowing everything out of proportion.