Evaluation knives and bias

This talk of review bias on these forums is laughable to me. Here's why;

This is a public forum, where the only ones who pay to be here are those who have a commercial interest in knives ie; selling them. They are paying to open themselves up to criticism, especially the manufacturers, and what they do with that 'information' is up to them.
It is also the choice of any user in here to submit their views on knives they've used or handled. Some reviews are rougher or 'meaner' than others, but it behooves those with a commercial interest to man up and take it without getting defensive and feeling insulted. Loyal customers also have the option of defending their favorite maker or manufacturer, but insulting the 'reviewer' personally is childish.
If the manufacturer or their representatives are not involved in the forums they are capable of ignoring the content completely, and continue selling their wares to the much larger knife buying market who doesn't even know this forum exists. A few negative reviews in here probably have an insignificant effect in the overall sales of companies who choose to avoid this forum. Benchmade may be one of these companies from what I can tell.

I'm more concerned with bias in knife magazines which are rife with it, than with bias in these forums. The financial involvement of manufacturers, although cleverly disguised, is transparent to me and probably many others. My concern centers around the fact that these magazines cost consumers money and I'm sure many regard them as 'news' providers. It's just that the 'news' has more to do with manufacturers' submissions than independent writing. Yeah, I know we have the choice to buy them or not, which I will continue to do, but I take the written content mostly with a grain of salt.

I think a larger concern in these forums is the practice of some to take what they want from others' posts, piece it together out of context in order to promote their own view. This happened to me recently, and while it pissed me off, I'm not going to go and call someone out because it's not worth my time and users of this site should know better than to do that. If you're going to quote someone, use their whole damn post or leave it be.
I also think that directly insulting other users in front of the 10 000 or so other registered users is in immature and bad form, even if it is 'entertaining' for those who like standing at the sidelines watching conflict.

As for mixing OE with Guinness, one word - YUCK! (That's my review)
 
Sookie said:
As for mixing OE with Guinness, one word - YUCK! (That's my review)
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Don't knock it until you've tried it! Unless of course you have tried it, then you are definately entitled to your opinion on it! I just remember it making the OE more palatable, which of course isn't saying much.

Mike
 
Not all of the paying folks have a vested interested in reselling our used knives and gear (I do, though); some like giving back to the community which has given us so much knife news and views. We get real-time reviews of knives before they're praised up and down for any and every behavior ("The blade snapped off at the handle which is a very timely feature as I was going to slash my neighbor's tires. That $600 folder saved me from myself and certain jail time!") and we get to mix and mingle with other demented souls and see photos of up-and-coming must-have knives either before the magazines are out or which might not have made it into print.

I don't think that most makers/manufacturers/sellers are liars, cheats, or scoundrels and doubt that's the future of this business either. Sometimes, though, in all of our excitement, "Emperor's New Clothes" situations crop up and it takes some brutal honesty to move forward. Painful and annoying, but necessary so long as we hold onto misconceptions and strengthen our bonds to emotionally satisfying mistakes.
 
A. G. Russell said:
Yes I read Cliff and sometimes think that he seems to favor this maker or that.
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I have makers that I am friends with, it is not exactly pleasing to give them a negative review. If you do feel I have left out weak points of knives from some people drop me an email and I will recheck the reviews.

thombrogan said:
You do eat Nepali food, though, right?
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Drink enough and you will eat most anything, at least for a short time.

thombrogan said:
Sometimes, though, in all of our excitement, "Emperor's New Clothes" situations crop up and it takes some brutal honesty to move forward.
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This is always the case, few people will assert that all marketing is 100% honest.

STR said:
You cannot really claim to be encouraging others to learn much if you do not recognize anyone elses input as valid ...
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That is true, that would not be very encouraging of honest feedback. Then again since I assembled a group of several dozen independent people and am providing them knives to use and a space to host their reports and engage in discussions, that really would not apply here now would it.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
That is true, that would not be very encouraging of honest feedback. Then again since I assembled a group of several dozen independent people and am providing them knives to use and a space to host their reports and engage in discussions, that really would not apply here now would it.

-Cliff
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But is sure applies in a lot of other situations where illogic is used and used with a bias.
 
That I am willing to have several dozen people check my statements at my own expense speaks to my commitment to unbiased data. If I was the type of person you constantly assert then it would be completely illogical to have other people check the conclusions I have drawn and I have done that consistently since I started reviewing knives. I have always talked about knives and performance, and I will say the same things about performance consistently. Now if I was inconsistent then you can claim bias, but you can not claim intermittant bias on a consistent perspective. That is illogical.

-Cliff
 
Most anyone would have some form of favorable bias t words a person/business who does them a favor, so perhaps there is a slight bias for the testers. But I would think not too much, other than not wanting to be insulting, or why would they want to test?? They could just nod along and say its great, best thing since sliced bread, with no first hand involvement.
**Slight thread jack warning**
BUT what the real deal underlying problem with this seems to be, is that recently many folks (custom makers businesses,and collectors, people that could possibly have a vested interest themselves) have a problem with Cliff and his way of putting thing in text about the knife makers and custom world in particular. Also by association the "stampies". By pointing out the optimal usage of a certain steel, and criticizing the just "ok" usage of a steel, or perhaps even pointing out a style of blade could be a strange choice for certain applications, he could be potentially hurting the sales of professional tactical knife makers. This might be true, but I would think that even that would be totally exaggerated, and this is the reason why. Almost NO collector of said knives will ever use those "hard use knives" for anything even remotely hard use. I'd be amazed if someone could show me 5% of collectors that do. The same as comic, stamps or whatever else is collectable, they collect them, so that they can resell to each other at a profit, or just to look at and feel a sense of worth, or pride. "Don't remove the toy from the box, it makes it not a collectible anymore!!!" Thus is the game and sport of the collector, just the medium is different. It seems that since it's supposed to be a tool, feathers get ruffled. So when Cliff who for some reason believes that a custom $500.00 knife should be a tool as well, says something like "The geometric blah blah blah of the cutting blah suck because of the blah," really no potential customer really gives 2 shits what he says, since they will never be in a position to care about performance, if it really works, or is used by some "operator." Thats just gravy. As for the Kershaw thing, yes Cliff was antagonistic and insulting to Thomas, and shouldn't have been, (IMHO) but really, as Thomas has said himself, most of Kershaw's business has nothing to do with the high end stuff that we as knife nuts buy, most of the sales are sporting goods store lower end. So why would a Canadian professor have any merit to a guy just buying a knife for his camping trip care? I don't think he would. For the testing bias, Cliff likes Spyderco and Busse, one because they come with better geometry for pure cutting then most other companies, and the other because they have some crazy ass steel that actually lives up to most of its hype. Whats wrong with that? Where is Cliff's bias other than he doesn't drink the kool aid of customs? Now, he does seem to be a bit of an asshole, and likes to argue the wrong points way to much with the wrong people, but who cares? Just move on and make different friends, like a wise person said earlier.
 
Illogic can be seen in the bias of the words that were put into some makers mouths (Ed and Kevin).
 
samhain73 said:
... than he doesn't drink the kool aid of customs?
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My personal carry/use knives are actually all customs, kitchen (Johnston), general utility (Wilson), and large chopper (Parrell), are all custom knives of which I had significant input in the design. I do not have much experience with high end custom folders because frankly there is little attraction there as they are all optomized for something I have no interest in.

There are about a dozen custom blades I am seriously interested in, they are are large chopper class. It would be difficult for me to get interested in small blades because of what I already own. How many people are making blades that will out cut Johnston's 66 HRC 1095 blade? The high edge stability knives of Landes and company though are interesting and I am getting some of these mainly for comparative purposes. I want to see things like F2 vs AEB-L vs 15V vs REX 121 in small cutting knives.

Let Paul try to do three runs with those knives until they dull cutting cardboard.

-Cliff
 
samhain73 said:
Almost NO collector of said knives will ever use those "hard use knives" for anything even remotely hard use. I'd be amazed if someone could show me 5% of collectors that do.

The same as comic, stamps or whatever else is collectable, they collect them, so that they can resell to each other at a profit, or just to look at and feel a sense of worth, or pride. "Don't remove the toy from the box, it makes it not a collectible anymore!!!" Thus is the game and sport of the collector, just the medium is different. It seems that since it's supposed to be a tool, feathers get ruffled. So when Cliff who for some reason believes that a custom $500.00 knife should be a tool as well, says something like "The geometric blah blah blah of the cutting blah suck because of the blah," really no potential customer really gives 2 shits what he says, since they will never be in a position to care about performance, if it really works, or is used by some "operator."

Thats just gravy. As for the Kershaw thing, yes Cliff was antagonistic and insulting to Thomas, and shouldn't have been, (IMHO) but really, as Thomas has said himself, most of Kershaw's business has nothing to do with the high end stuff that we as knife nuts buy, most of the sales are sporting goods store lower end.

So why would a Canadian professor have any merit to a guy just buying a knife for his camping trip care? I don't think he would. For the testing bias, Cliff likes Spyderco and Busse, one because they come with better geometry for pure cutting then most other companies, and the other because they have some crazy ass steel that actually lives up to most of its hype. Whats wrong with that?

Where is Cliff's bias other than he doesn't drink the kool aid of customs? Now, he does seem to be a bit of an asshole, and likes to argue the wrong points way to much with the wrong people, but who cares? Just move on and make different friends, like a wise person said earlier.
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1. I use a lot of knives...have used a Pat Crawford Leopard, a(gasp!) Carson Medium M-4, a bunch of Sebenzas, using a J.W. Smith folder right now. Beat the living hell out of the Carson and the Crawford, up to and including hammering on the spine to use them as chop chisels. They work really nice. Do they work 4x as nice as a factory piece for $100.00? That I don't know, or care. The work that Cliff does on those types of pieces, is, I am sure, very appreciated by those that want that particular skinny. No one is calling for him to stop testing knives.

2. Cliff is not a knife collector, and he certainly is not a custom knife collector. His views on fit and finish would not be what we would call educated towards that segment.

3. Being insulted by Forumites for proudly representing the company that he works for is what really got to Thomas. It was rude, unnecessary and totally out of line. Why is is ok to do that? It isn't. If Kershaw makes 5% of their profit from the really cool knives that appeal to knuts, but the executives involved on those projects get 75% of their job satisfaction from producing that stuff, do you not understand how shitting all over it, or accusing them of being lying, self serving toadies would cause some serious ill-will?

4. I have gotten some bad Spyderco knives, and EVERY Busse that I have ever gotten from the factory had to be shipped to Bill Siegle for a respectably sharp edge, so Cliff's bias is not so easily explained away like that. Both companies do make a superior knife, however, once you get there.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Not to mention the ill-will that is created when words are placed into a makers mouth when they post of their experience and then a situation is artificially and illogically created where that maker is accused of putting down other makers and the situation is described as fact numerous times.
 
As I said, how Cliff acted in the discussion with Thomas wasn't very nice. And, he could just ignore some threads, as he knows he will get into an argument, that doesn't really pertain to the subject at hand, the same as many of you could avoid him since you know the way it will go. BUT, the only reason I chimed in was I sometimes worry that a witch hunt is 2 seconds away, and don't want this to become like another forum. Some of us enjoy the forum, as much as the knives.
 
I would like to chime in once again, this time for Kershaw. I deal with every company in this country that makes or imports knives, except two. That said, of all the companies that I do deal with The young people at Kershaw are the most passionat about knives of any. They deliver when they say they will and if problems arise they never duck, but jump right in and work for a solution. I am amazed that the name came up.

I have enjoyed most of this and learned some, but, I think that I have gained as much as I can from this thread. I will drop out and try to make some money. My friends I will see you on other threads.
 
Sounds like a good idea A.G. I'm going to follow your lead. I really meant to stop at one post.

STR
 
It is not about makers, it is about methods and results. The people are not relevant, just cited so as to not be rumors. For example Mayer has argued that the high temper procsdure used by Bos in inferior to the low temper treatment that he uses. Mayer cites as proof the materials data from Hitachi which is supported by the known embrittlement of stainless steels which have a secondary hardening region. This proposal was reinforced by Landes who directly measured the fact that the edge stability is lower with the higher temperature tempering.

Now instead of using the names the alternative would be : "A well known heat treater and a well respect tactical knife maker are in direct contention as to how to harden a well known commonly used knife steel. The makers arguement is well supported by data from a respected steel manufacturer and another maker who is also a metallurgist.". It is hardly the case that the second statement is more informative and quite frankly is nothing more than a rumor because the truth can never be assertained.

It is always the case in any kind of research that you cite specifically the work which supports what you say and that which you contend. You do not want to be part of it, then fine. But it is going to happen if you like it or not. If Bladeforums does not want to host such discussions then they will simply take place elsewhere and people can go there to find that information.

-Cliff
 
A. G. Russell said:
I would like to chime in once again, this time for Kershaw. I deal with every company in this country that makes or imports knives, except two. That said, of all the companies that I do deal with The young people at Kershaw are the most passionat about knives of any. They deliver when they say they will and if problems arise they never duck, but jump right in and work for a solution. I am amazed that the name came up.
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Coming from you A.G. that means quite a lot, thank you very much.

Now to keep those problems from arising.;)
 
Cliff Stamp said:
.....Now instead of using the names the alternative would be : "A well known heat treater and a well respect tactical knife maker are in direct contention as to how to harden a well known commonly used knife steel. The makers arguement is well supported by data from a respected steel manufacturer and another maker who is also a metallurgist.". It is hardly the case that the second statement is more informative and quite frankly is nothing more than a rumor because the truth can never be assertained.

It is always the case in any kind of research that you cite specifically the work which supports what you say and that which you contend. You do not want to be part of it, then fine. But it is going to happen if you like it or not. If Bladeforums does not want to host such discussions then they will simply take place elsewhere and people can go there to find that information.

-Cliff
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1. You make those kinds of statements, frequently, as well, it is just that the Bos/Mayer thing was handy for you to roll out.

2. Personally, if "such discussions" took place ANYWHERE but BladeForums, that would be cool by me.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Mayer cites as proof the materials data from Hitachi which is supported by the known embrittlement of stainless steels which have a secondary hardening region. This proposal was reinforced by Landes who directly measured the fact that the edge stability is lower with the higher temperature tempering.
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I feel guilty for not yet obtaining a copy of Messerklingen und Stahl, but I was perusing the "martensitic stainless steels" section in one of Verhoeven's works (to find out more about AEB-L without pestering Larrin Thomas) and saw that higher-temperature heat-treatments in 440C-class steels are needed to prevent the precipitation of K1 carbides (which increase embrittlement and ability to corrode). Does the added molybdenum and slightly lower levels of chromium in ATS-34/154CM cause that steel to increase K1 carbide precipitation at the same heats used to decrease it in 15440C?
 
thombrogan said:
Does the added molybdenum and slightly lower levels of chromium in ATS-34/154CM cause that steel to increase K1 carbide precipitation at the same heats used to decrease it in 15440C?
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I should have been more clear, I was speaking of the higher temperature tempering, 950 F. This hardness peak is caused by carbide precipitation which aggregates on grain boundries and induces embrittlement. You can actually increase the tempering temperature and shift the formation of precipitation away from grain boundries to reduce the embrittlement but it will still lower edge stability and reduce corrosion resistance.

The main reason it is done in general is that it is just much cheaper/simpler to high temper harden than do the neceessary fast quench + cryo to reduce austenite with a low temperature temper. However with the really high alloy steels it is necessary directly. You can not temper M2 low for example as there is simply far too much retained austenite, even with cryo, the edge stability will be too low. You need the high temper to transform the austenite by getting rid of the alloy in it.

Of course the high temperature temper also gives high hot hardness which is one of the main benefits of ATS-34 over 440C, though that isn't really critical to knives. Unless the edges are being superheated at least above 350F for extended periods of time in the cutting. Paper ignites at 451 F so unless the cardboard is smoking as you cut you are probably ok.

-Cliff
 
Not to mention the ill-will that is created when words are placed into a makers mouth when they post of their experience and then a situation is artificially and illogically created where that maker is accused of putting down other makers and the situation is described as fact numerous times.

1. You make those kinds of statements, frequently, as well, it is just that the Bos/Mayer thing was handy for you to roll out.
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Nice avoid.;)
 
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