Every time I hear a framelock isn't that strong..

[Gideons]

Everytime I see posts or hear that "frame locks aren't that strong of a lock" I think of this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW0TVkcBFkw&t=464s I don't condone or think of any situation where I would be use my knife like he is... But, if the frame lock can stand up to that abuse I would consider the frame lock to be pretty darn strong. More than strong enough to handle what any normal situation would require to use it for lol.

-Gideons

 

[Glenn056]

Well I guess a well made one would just wear in until the point of failure at the cutout without slipping under heavy stress. Perhaps it being Ti on steel, the stick helped in the prevention of slipping, just my assumption.

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[Gideons]

Well I guess a well made one would just wear in until the point of failure at the cutout without slipping under heavy stress. Perhaps it being Ti on steel, the stick helped in the prevention of slipping, just my assumption.

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Yes, I think that is very possible. I think that if the steel insert is done correctly and you have your finger/hand providing just a little bit of "tension" the lock won't slip in my experience. Either way, I think it proves that frame locks have the possibility of being extremely strong.

 

[Glenn056]

Yes, I think that is very possible. I think that if the steel insert is done correctly and you have your finger/hand providing just a little bit of "tension" the lock won't slip in my experience.

As for the hand pressure, I saw Vininull's Strider torture test and during the spinrwhack test (yes i know i know) he mentioned that the bar pushed his finger off regardless and disengaged. So I would assume that although the hand grip does help in the secureness of a framelock, it isn't that much of a factor.

(Ps: I must say that the Strider did very well aswell after the lock was set, but the ZT550 still shines over it)

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[Gideons]

As for the hand pressure, I saw Vininull's Strider torture test and during the spinrwhack test (yes i know i know) he mentioned that the bar pushed his finger off regardless and disengaged. So I would assume that although the hand grip does help in the secureness of a framelock, it isn't that much of a factor.

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Yes, I think it has to do with dimensions with the lock if I'm honest. For example My ZT 0630 would push my hand away, but my ZT 0560's and my ZT 0566's don't. I think angles and quality control are a lot more important/hard to perfect and maybe that leads to a bad reputation? Or maybe I've just had good luck with my 2 0560's and 2 0566.

 

[Glenn056]

Yes, I think it has to do with dimensions with the lock if I'm honest. For example My ZT 0630 would push my hand away, but my ZT 0560's and my ZT 0566's don't. I think angles and quality control are a lot more important/hard to perfect and maybe that leads to a bad reputation? Or maybe I've just had good luck with my 2 0560's and 2 0566.

True, but i think the lockbar tension also aids in a more secure lock. I've heard the ZT620's have pretty light lockbar tension for supposedly a better wave action, and thus failed pretty easily in torture tests. Not too sure if this applies to its sister the ZT0630 aswell though.

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[Gideons]

True, but i think the lockbar tension also aids in a more secure lock. I've heard the ZT620's have pretty light lockbar tension for supposedly a better wave action, and thus failed pretty easily in torture tests. Not too sure if this applies to its sister the ZT0630 aswell though.

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Hmm, that makes sense. Thank you for your input. May I ask, what are your personal thoughts on frame locks/ do you use them?

 

[Glenn056]

But then again the video of the Sebenza vs Code 4 showed that even with a high tension lockbar of the sebenza, it still easily slipped under shock and pressure.
(Now i personally don't think CS needed to tamper with the CRKs due to it being not much of a contest in the first place, even the monster ZT0300 fell to the AK47) I just think that somehow due to the 0 stick sebenzas have, it made slipping easier.

Sigh, I might get flamed for this statement.

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[Glenn056]

Hmm, that makes sense. Thank you for your input. May I ask, what are your personal thoughts on frame locks/ do you use them?

Anytime, I love technical discussions. I currently edc my ZT0562CF, which is actually my first framelock, past experiences have only been handling them not owning, and had mostly owned linerlocks and backlocks and other misc locks. I like it quite alot. It feels so secure and the flat and not radiused tang is properly done and i doubt it would wear any further.

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[Gideons]

But then again the video of the Sebenza vs Code 4 showed that even with a high tension lockbar of the sebenza, it still easily slipped under shock and pressure.
(Now i personally don't think CS needed to tamper with the CRKs due to it being not much of a contest in the first place, even the monster ZT0300 fell to the AK47) I just think that somehow due to the 0 stick sebenzas have, it made slipping easier.

Sigh, I might get flamed for this statement.

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Haha, I saw that video and I never said they were perfect you know? I have never held or used a Sebenza. But, for example the ZT0301 if I'm not mistaken passed all the spine whacks and other "tests" then the lock slipped after hanging 270 pounds from it. Now, I wonder/believe that if there was pressure on the lockbar at 270 it wouldn't of slipped. But, either way that is an extremely strong lock no matter which way you look at it haha, as it did pass all the spine whacks (without any hand holding the lockbar in place) and without any hand holding the lockbar it did take up to 270 pounds. Now, I just do wish to clarify, that I DON'T think the frame lock is the STRONGEST but if done correctly is extremely strong.

 

[Glenn056]

Haha, I saw that video and I never said they were perfect you know? I have never held or used a Sebenza. But, for example the ZT0301 if I'm not mistaken passed all the spine whacks and other "tests" then the lock slipped after hanging 270 pounds from it. Now, I wonder/believe that if there was pressure on the lockbar at 270 it wouldn't of slipped. But, either way that is an extremely strong lock no matter which way you look at it haha, as it did pass all the spine whacks (without any hand holding the lockbar in place) and without any hand holding the lockbar it did take up to 270 pounds. Now, I just do wish to clarify, that I DON'T think the frame lock is the STRONGEST but if done correctly is extremely strong.

Agreed they are perfectly strong locks. But the ZT0300 suffered from pretty major deformation at the lockbar cutout which most likely caused the slip. It is surprisingly still functional afterwards though.

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[Glenn056]

I saw/heard this theory on lockbar cutouts, that the forces upon the lockbar would be transferred inline to the base of the lockbar when the cutout is at the outside, like the Striders ZTs Hinderers etc and thus minimising the chance of deformation at the cutout. However for cutouts to be on the inside of the frame,like a sebenza, the forces traveling down the lockbar might cause the cutout to bend/deform outwards. Hence there are several harduse framelock knives with the cutouts at the outside of the frame.
Not too sure how legit the theory is though, but i think it makes sense.

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[BTGuy]

Gideons, that video you referred to is one of the major reasons I ended up getting a ZT 562. While browsing around looking up information on knives built for hard use, I stumbled upon this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q3Z9koNohHDIUogSVRaIGl-o3mebrbjwSDNcR0h5LlU/edit#gid=0. I watched every video of that guy testing the folding knives and was very impressed by how the ZT 550 held up. After realizing the 550 was not being made any more I looked into similar, more recent production models and found the 562.

I get the impression framelocks are thought of as "not that strong" when compared to something like a compression lock or the like. All it takes is for the lock bar to slip off the blade and the knife will be free to close. That's why I've been tending to look at a little bit of "lock stick" as a good thing. I have a few framelock knives that I could disengage the lockbar smoothly with my thumb holding the knife in one hand. With a couple of those knives I could grasp the blade with my other hand, force the blade towards closing, and see the lockbar begin to slide off the blade. I'd imagine it wouldn't take much force to have the lockbar disengage completely if I were to spine whack them. The couple that feel a little "sticky" trying to disengage the lockbar, not so much. I used to look at framelocks as an overall stronger lock, but now I'm realizing that can only be the case if the mechanisms are designed and built properly.

Regarding lock failure based on the lockbar cutout, I remember that same knife tester doing a video where the lockbar bent at the cutout in such a way that the blade was still kept locked. I think it was with the cutout on the outside. Of course, the knife was broken at that point, but I remember thinking that it at least failed in such a way that your fingers would've still been safe.

 

[JR88FAN]

The question is, how much strength do you need and why?

I need a lock that will not let my knife close on my fingers if I make a mistake.
Haven't used one frame lock yet that had any issue with doing it's job....I use all my knives hard, and make mistakes, sometimes on purpose, but I try to do my best to remember that a knife is a cutting tool with one sharp edge.

 

[SCWillson]

My Spyderco Dice has a combination steel lockface/overtravel stop, which should in theory prevent the blade from closing if the lockbar gets warped. But I'm wondering what kind of pressure it would take (that wasn't deliberate abuse) it would take to warp the lockbar that much and would cause the edge to come in contact with the fingers? When I'm using a knife I'm using the sharp edge, meaning if the lock breaks/disengages the edge will move away from my fingers, not onto them.

Yes, the Dice is my only framelock, but in almost 50 years of carrying a knife I've never had a single knife with a lock failure, be it liner lock, framelock, or lockback. What is the point of such tests? Anything can be broken with enough force, but is enough force to break a framelock something that can occur in actual and reasonable use? My bet is that the pivot would break before most the lock on most framelocks or lockbacks. Who in their right mind uses a folder to punch through a car door or as a piton?

 

[SCWillson]

The question is, how much strength do you need and why?

I need a lock that will not let my knife close on my fingers if I make a mistake.
Haven't used one frame lock yet that had any issue with doing it's job....I use all my knives hard, and make mistakes, sometimes on purpose, but I try to do my best to remember that a knife is a cutting tool with one sharp edge.

There is a category of knives known as "fixed blade." Yes, they are considered old fashioned by some, given that their original incarnations were made of flint, but they are still around and many have better materials than the originals.

 

[Glenn056]

Yes everybody, no one would deliberately break or deform,or probably even have the ability to, a framelock in daily cutting tasks. But some people including me find it interesting in researching about the limits to strengths of locks. Its not needed, sure, but i think its interesting ,similar to learning how fast some cars can go, even though on public roads one usually would not go over the limit, or maybe like how vehicles undergo crash test when the majority of them would never have to undergo such a task in real life. The techinical stuffs😉

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[SCWillson]

Yes everybody, no one would deliberately break or deform,or probably even have the ability to, a framelock in daily cutting tasks. But some people including me find it interesting in researching about the limits to strengths of locks. Its not needed, sure, but i think its interesting ,similar to learning how fast some cars can go, even though on public roads one usually would not go over the limit, or maybe like how vehicles undergo crash test when the majority of them would never have to undergo such a task in real life. The technical stuffs😉

I can see that, but face it, most of the torture tests are simply for show, especially since there is no standard for how that testing is done. Archimedes showed us there is a considerable difference between the force exerted by a lever near its pivot point and its end, yet I have seen videos of guys spine whacking about 1" from the handle. And John Doe hitting a knife with a sledgehammer isn't likely to have the same result as Bob Doe doing the same.

To do real, scientifically valid tests, it would all need to be done in a manner that takes all the variables out. Machine presses, power hammers, force sensors, hardness tests, and using multiples of each model to ensure the knife model tested is typical and not better or worse than average. Otherwise, it's really nothing but entertainment.

 

[Glenn056]

I can see that, but face it, most of the torture tests are simply for show, especially since there is no standard for how that testing is done. Archimedes showed us there is a considerable difference between the force exerted by a lever near its pivot point and its end, yet I have seen videos of guys spine whacking about 1" from the handle. And John Doe hitting a knife with a sledgehammer isn't likely to have the same result as Bob Doe doing the same.

To do real, scientifically valid tests, it would all need to be done in a manner that takes all the variables out. Machine presses, power hammers, force sensors, hardness tests, and using multiples of each model to ensure the knife model tested is typical and not better or worse than average. Otherwise, it's really nothing but entertainment.

But there is something valid that the video Vininull made. It proved that ZT wasn't kidding when they claimed their folders are "Overbuilt in the USA" and are "Beast"s. For a Ti framelock to hold up from all that abuse with minor damages that can be easily fixed, it really is impressive. And entertaining indeed😜

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[SCWillson]

Yeah, the one I watched of a Strider SMF being put through the grinder was fun (and painful!) to watch; I really hate seeing nice things deliberately abused. And seeing a $500 knife subjected to his testing was cringe-worthy.