LOL. It's worth nothing. I keep it as a conversation piece when someone into knives drops over to chat. Not for sale.
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"Experts" demand premium blade steels until it comes to prime collectors knives from companies like Loveless and Randall?
- Thread starter Stahlmann
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Absolutely, CRK makes a great knife. I have a Sebenza that I never use, but it's a prized part of my collection. Pretty darn good steel, though.
I never understood the desire for soft, low-wear steels. Not in today's market. The thing about hard, high-wear steels is that they are very strong and can hold a very thin edge. Not only does that thin edge cut much better than a 0.030" wedge edge, it's easier to sharpen, because of diamond stones and the need to remove so little metal.
The other part of this is kind of like surfers looking for the perfect wave. I have more knives than I can use, but if I find an EDC that is much better than what I use now, I'll buy it. There's pleasure in a functional upgrade, even though it's not needed.
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Who are these people you speak of? Can you provide links and examples of such things happening?
What I see here is nothing more than a hasty generalization. You’re assuming that the same guy buying a ZT in M390 is the same guy buying a Loveless in ATS-34.
Oh there are most certainly legitimate experts out there.
For this topic -- steels used in knife blades, someone like Larrin Thomas is an honest to goodness expert. Someone with the formal education (PhD in MatE) and extensive hands-on experience to legitimately hold that the title of "expert" when it comes to this subject.
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not2sharp
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The premium steel market is an over-hyped sales pitch. Knife performance is dependent primarily on design and geometry, and you don’t need an armored tank to cut, chop, or process. While any knife can be abused to failure, when it happens it is usually due to the incompetence and neglect of the user rather than the chemistry of the steel. The trick to performance is to learn to use your knife to it’s optimal ability. There are folks in the trades or back waters of the world who can accomplish more with a simple knife than most of us can with a wagon load of super knives.
n2s
n2s
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Super steels are are superior to old steels, until you get them dirty. During the holiday season I slice ham off the bone and cut up a truck load of cheese with zdp 189 and M390. They perform as expected but not visibly so by onlookers. But if you cut meat, cheese, paper, and plastic, the hair-splitting ability disappears. The fact is a sharp edge is easily fouled by things you wouldn't expect: fat, gristle, lactose, micro-plastic. So a perpetually sharp edge without some retouching is a complete myth. That's why non-knife people can't see the logic of buying knives that cost more than $10. There is some sense to that. Super steels aren't all they're cracked up to be.
DocJD
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I'm on both sides of this debate .
I do appreciate that the science of metallurgy does advance and I consider that a good thing , ultimately .
On the other hand , the whole "super steel" thing is sometimes used more as marketing hype than any real world, functional benefit to the consumer .
I do appreciate that the science of metallurgy does advance and I consider that a good thing , ultimately .
On the other hand , the whole "super steel" thing is sometimes used more as marketing hype than any real world, functional benefit to the consumer .
Aren't Randalls warranted for life? I know it's just me but these pics made me shudder, mostly because of what one initially costs.Randall knives have a highly regarded aesthetic, nice leather sheaths and an excellent reputation with knife users in general. They are expensive, hard to get from the factory. They use older, low-end steels, run soft (often at 54 Rc) that are perfectly functional, but easily surpassed by better steels.
I purchased one Randall used on the forum, just because I wanted to see what Randall knives are all about. The fit and finish were bad on my knife. I couldn't resell it because the finish problems were too bad (bottom photo). So I gave it a good workout. The blade performed miserably. The softness was readily apparent. Yes, used as intended, it was a workable knife. Used properly, it could last a lifetime. But it could not take any abuse.
Many modern steels are tougher, stronger and have much, much better wear resistance. They will greatly outperform Randall's O1 or 440B. That's why I'll never buy another Randall.
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In many ways, it's an apples-to-oranges comparison because it all depends on the intended purpose of the knife.
Probably, the vast majority folks who buy a Randall aren't buying it to process four thousand linear feet of cardboard every week. I'd bet in most cases, the knives are either not used, or lightly used for traditional camping/skinning/woodcraft tasks that don't require extreme levels of steel performance.
On the other hand, most folks who want a rough-and-tumble EDC folder do want something that can take a lot of daily use and abuse. A higher performing steel is desirable in that case. Because it's a knife that is going to be used every day unlike your Randall.
Then there's the whole aesthetics aspect. CPM S110V just doesn't belong on a Randall, any more than O1 belongs on a Microtech.
Even if I were a billionaire I wouldn't pay $50 for a Randall knife if I knew that I couldn't depend on it if I needed to use it.
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I perfectly understand the need to get a knife featuring the "best" steel your money can buy. You could be a genuine user wherein certain things are at risk, depending on how well your knife will perform.
Or you could just be a collector. If you are, lemme just share my training in geology. What defines a gem stone? A gem stone is a naturally occurring mineral or rock that has a "high intrinsic value." I don't think there are any more useful definitions. So what is high intrinsic value? Well, that piece of rock may be rare. It could be very durable. Or it could be very beautiful. There could be other qualifications that make it more valuable than other lumps of rock. But the point I'm driving is value is measured two ways: relative measurement or perceived.
Or you could just be a collector. If you are, lemme just share my training in geology. What defines a gem stone? A gem stone is a naturally occurring mineral or rock that has a "high intrinsic value." I don't think there are any more useful definitions. So what is high intrinsic value? Well, that piece of rock may be rare. It could be very durable. Or it could be very beautiful. There could be other qualifications that make it more valuable than other lumps of rock. But the point I'm driving is value is measured two ways: relative measurement or perceived.
I googled it and Randalls are warranted for life. Send it back. What's the worst that can happen?
Here's the problem: "We warrant that each Randall Made™ knife is free from defects in manufacture and will be replaced should any appear, when in use by original owner."
I'm not the original owner. The fit and finish was pretty bad, so I did contact them and sent photos (before I abused it). I actually thought it might be a counterfeit. They said too bad, the warranty died when the original owner sold it. That's not the kind of warranty I'd expect from a knife maker with such a sterling reputation; but by then I no longer wanted a Randall.
I agree with a lot of people who say that the knife is just fine if used properly. I would say that about a cheap gas-station knife, too.
But when I used one of Nathan's CPK light choppers to do some heavy brush clearing to open up my young redwoods to sunlight, I really, really, really appreciated just how well a modern, well-made, well-heat treated knife in Delta 3V can hold up to extended hard use. Love that knife.
I suspect more often than not it's a matter of "desire" and not actual "need."
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A discussion about “wants” and “needs” is common occurrence if you share a bank account with anyone. I guess I’m very lucky, I’ve come to understand I don’t “need” anything - except to say Yes Dear - a lot.
Then I come to places like this forum where I find out how much I really do “need” a new something or other. Right now I “need” a LW Manix in M390!
Then I come to places like this forum where I find out how much I really do “need” a new something or other. Right now I “need” a LW Manix in M390!
Actually, I see a lot of Randall knives being being used. I'd even venture to say that they are one of the more highly used handmade knives in the World. For instance, I see a lot more Randalls afield than ABS Mastersmith knives, etc....
Also there are still huge swathes of the market that still prefer the more basic steels. The forums somewhat, and Youtube certainly are colored by the chase for the newest and the latest.
Also there are still huge swathes of the market that still prefer the more basic steels. The forums somewhat, and Youtube certainly are colored by the chase for the newest and the latest.
with all due respect that knife has no scratches from a good work out. bent and pried with perhaps but no indications from cuttingRandall knives have a highly regarded aesthetic, nice leather sheaths and an excellent reputation with knife users in general. They are expensive, hard to get from the factory. They use older, low-end steels, run soft (often at 54 Rc) that are perfectly functional, but easily surpassed by better steels.
I purchased one Randall used on the forum, just because I wanted to see what Randall knives are all about. The fit and finish were bad on my knife. I couldn't resell it because the finish problems were too bad (bottom photo). So I gave it a good workout. The blade performed miserably. The softness was readily apparent. Yes, used as intended, it was a workable knife. Used properly, it could last a lifetime. But it could not take any abuse.
Many modern steels are tougher, stronger and have much, much better wear resistance. They will greatly outperform Randall's O1 or 440B. That's why I'll never buy another Randall.
not2sharp
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Nathan makes a great knife. But, saying this is like buying a new car, driving like a nut, and praising the quality of its airbags . While it is comforting to know the knife is well designed and durable, it shouldn’t be operated like that. That is how you end up hurting the knife and possibly yourself. With hard use, there is always an increased probability of metal fatigue and micro fractures, some of which can only be detected when the knife fails on you at a later date.
n2s
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BAAAAM. There it is. Well said, and total agreement.
I would simply add "the trick to performance is to learn to use AND LEARN TO SHARPEN your knife to its optimal ability."
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all those companies did fine before premium steel, i suspect they will continue to do so.
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