"Experts" demand premium blade steels until it comes to prime collectors knives from companies like Loveless and Randall?

[Monofletch]

I will buy “super steels” as long as they can chop cinder blocks and hold 200# of free weights!
Seriously though…. You need to find the designs you like and trust the maker gives you the best product they can.
Quick question- who would buy a 20CV screwdriver?

 

[bikerector]

Randall knives have a highly regarded aesthetic, nice leather sheaths and an excellent reputation with knife users in general. They are expensive, hard to get from the factory. They use older, low-end steels, run soft (often at 54 Rc) that are perfectly functional, but easily surpassed by better steels.

I purchased one Randall used on the forum, just because I wanted to see what Randall knives are all about. The fit and finish were bad on my knife. I couldn't resell it because the finish problems were too bad (bottom photo). So I gave it a good workout. The blade performed miserably. The softness was readily apparent. Yes, used as intended, it was a workable knife. Used properly, it could last a lifetime. But it could not take any abuse.

Many modern steels are tougher, stronger and have much, much better wear resistance. They will greatly outperform Randall's O1 or 440B. That's why I'll never buy another Randall.

This seems like a fake. Are you certain that's legitimate? Even the steel breaking out like it did seems crazy for something hardened to 54 or 55 RC. Of course, the gimping is pretty atrocious and I can't imagine a professional putting something like that out. For something that horribly made, I would think the company would want it back to rectify the issue just so something so crappy wasn't out there in the world to ruin their reputation.

I can imagine that starting quite the conversations, especially if it's authentic.

 

[000Robert]

BAAAAM. There it is. Well said, and total agreement.

I would simply add "the trick to performance is to learn to use AND LEARN TO SHARPEN your knife to its optimal ability."

Baaaam, I disagree. I can clamp up a CPK with D3V steel in my Wicked Edge 130 and see the difference in the steels right away. I can pretty much guess the hardness and quality of a given steel by the feel and sound of the WE diamond stones cutting the steel.
My son gave me a knife that a friend of his that is starting to learn knifemaking, gave to him. It is one of the knives in his very first batch of knives. I think that he made 3 but I'm not sure. My son said that the blade is made of some kind of tool steel. I'm guessing O1, but could be wrong. I figured the steel was between 60 - 65Rc while reprofiling and sharpening it to 600 grit at 17dps. My testing files agreed at 60+ - 65Rc. But the feel and sound of the WE diamond stones across this knife or lesser steels, and my CPK's, is like night and day. And I have no doubt that some tests of toughness and edge retention between them all would be very evident as well.
I don't think the kid did too bad for his first try. The spine close to the handle is 3/32", and steps to 1/16" a little ways toward the tip. The scales look like some kind of bone or antler and wood. It looks and feels like a full tang. He didn't add a name or maker's mark.

 

[shane45-1911]

Baaaam, I disagree.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with?

The point is that most modern steels - premium or otherwise - can be made a lot more functional if one knows how to sharpen properly, and knows the limitations and expectations of the knife/steel in question.

A wonder-steel that is improperly sharpened is far less usable and functional than a mid-grade steel that has been sharpened properly and has an edge geometry suited to the steel and the task at hand.

 

[madcap_magician]

I don't know how many times I've seen someone ask for input about XYZ knife. Mixed with the good/usable information is that from some of the steel "experts." Those that are quick to say the XYZ might be an OK knife, except for the fact its blade is made from ABC steel (a non-premium steel.) Thus, they wouldn't ever own it.

You see, they simply won't own knives that aren't produced using premium blade steels. If the blade isn't made from Bohler's latest and greatest (or better), it's "junk" in their minds.

Unless of course the knife is produced by a company like Loveless, RMK or the like. Then far more mundane steels magically become wholly acceptable to them.

Why the odd dichotomy?

See, we have steel snobs, and then we have people like you, who are snobby about steel snobbery.

That's how we get internet forums, so that the snobs and counter-snobs can argue more easily.

 

[000Robert]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with?

The point is that most modern steels - premium or otherwise - can be made a lot more functional if one knows how to sharpen properly, and knows the limitations and expectations of the knife/steel in question.

A wonder-steel that is improperly sharpened is far less usable and functional than a mid-grade steel that has been sharpened properly and has an edge geometry suited to the steel and the task at hand.

I agree with that. I was mainly disagreeing with your agreement with not2sharp that, "There are folks in the trades or back waters of the world who can accomplish more with a simple knife than most of us can with a wagon load of super knives."
I doubt that statement completely. When those simple knives crack and break, the super knives will keep on trucking.

 

[rhino]

Yet many steel snobs who can't even spell "physical chemistry" much less understand it, would wet their pantaloons at the prospect of owning your Randall -- prior to your product assurance testing.

At the same time they're advising newbs to stay away from some outstanding/well-priced knives because they're made from the same "junk steel" your Randall is/was.

Just out of curiousity, is your Randall for sale? If it is, how much would you have to have for it? Thanks.

For the record, rhino got As in both P Chem 1 and P Chem 2.

Meaningless trivia, but I had to say it!

 

[shane45-1911]

I was mainly disagreeing with your agreement with not2sharp that, "There are folks in the trades or back waters of the world who can accomplish more with a simple knife than most of us can with a wagon load of super knives."
I doubt that statement completely. When those simple knives crack and break, the super knives will keep on trucking.

I'm not speaking for N2S, but I think the point he is making is that a "cheap" knife by our first-world standards is often the only tool at hand for survival/work in a third-world country. And those knives serve their users very effectively. And while they may not be as durable as the premium steels we have the luxury of enjoying, that is not an option for many people in different countries and of varying socio-economic statuses.

It is sort of the "beware the man with one gun (and knows how to use it)" mentality. Applies to knives as well. These people do what they do with the tools at hand out of necessity. They don't have the option of buying a CRK or Loveless to put in a safe or hang on a wall. They don't know what M390 is, or even care. They use "cheap" tools as a means to an end, and at the end of the day, their cheap tools accomplish more in an hour than someone's Loveless sitting in a safe for a year.

We have the luxury of collecting. We have the luxury of being steel snobs. Many do not. And they do just fine with the tools they have.

 

[Quiet]

I agree with that. I was mainly disagreeing with your agreement with not2sharp that, "There are folks in the trades or back waters of the world who can accomplish more with a simple knife than most of us can with a wagon load of super knives."
I doubt that statement completely. When those simple knives crack and break, the super knives will keep on trucking.

Except that shane45-1911 is completely correct. "When those simple knives crack and break" is an entirely hilarious First World point of view. Go visit a Third World indigenous culture in say, South America sometime, where there are families still using simple carbon steel machetes that their parents owned and maybe even grandparents to cut a living out of the jungle. ESEE has done it, which is why they still use simple 1095 on their knives, because it simply works. Those folks' simple knives, they aren't super steels, but they're still working, primarily because those folks aren't dumb, and they use a knife for what it's supposed to be used for: cutting things. Not prying, not levering, just cutting. As for the "super knives", most of which are owned by people who don't have adequate sharpening equipment to put an edge back on 3V or similar, how much work will they do once the owner has gone on a camping trip or two and blunted the factory edge chopping everything he could get his hands on?

So, not2sharp was entirely on point with his assessment.

 

[000Robert]

I'm not speaking for N2S, but I think the point he is making is that a "cheap" knife by our first-world standards are often the only tools at hand for survival/work in a third-world country. And those knives serve their users very effectively. And while they may not be as durable as the premium steels we have the luxury of enjoying, that is not an option for many people in different cultures and of varying socio-economic statuses.

It is sort of the "beware of the man with one gun" mentality. Applies to knives as well. These people do what they do with the tools at hand out of necessity. They don't have the option of buying a CRK or Loveless to put in a safe or hang on a wall. They don't know what M390 is, or even care. They use "cheap" tools as a means to an end, and at the end of the day, their tools accomplish more in an hour than someone's Loveless sitting in a safe for a year.

We have the luxury of collecting. We have the luxury of being steel snobs. Many do not. And they do just fine with the tools they have.

Oh yeah, if that's all you have is lesser steel knives, then you make do with what you have. I agree with that. I feel sorry for those that cannot have knives with premium steels. You just have to be more careful. Most of my life I used budget steel knives. I recently bought a Buck 120 General. But I have much more faith in my Carothers UF than I do in the Buck General.

 

[Lesknife]

I don’t have any Randall or Loveless knives or any “ high end “ dealer stuff. Mostly Buck knives a few Case and a few other odd ones out. The Case knives I have are a mix of true sharp and cv with one in 154cm. The Buck knives are in a variety of 420hc, 440a, cpm 154,D2, V3, s30v,S35vn, and 20cv.

I don’t have any favorite steel per say because each type of knife is used for a different task. For my work edc folder I like the Buck vantage pro in 20cv mainly for its corrosion resistance but it’s edge holding is spectacular. I also carry a Buck 303 cader in 420hc that is mostly for smaller tasks and I don’t use it in the harsh elements so it works well in that regard. In my job there’s some very corrosive and harsh chemicals that can eat a good steel and I try to avoid them but you never know when it will be there until later.
Away from my job out camping, fishing and hunting I have larger fixed blade knives that I like the 420hc because it’s very tough but I recently bought a 104 compadre in V3 that should be a very tough blade.

So each type of knife used for different tasks is where I consider the type of steel that best suits that task. One type of steel isn’t necessarily better than another but depending what and how it’s used is what makes a difference in performance. There’s lots of variables in the way a person can get the best value and performance from each type of steel for the different types of knives in the different kinds of tasks.

 

[TheEdge01]

Randall knives have a highly regarded aesthetic, nice leather sheaths and an excellent reputation with knife users in general. They are expensive, hard to get from the factory. They use older, low-end steels, run soft (often at 54 Rc) that are perfectly functional, but easily surpassed by better steels.

I purchased one Randall used on the forum, just because I wanted to see what Randall knives are all about. The fit and finish were bad on my knife. I couldn't resell it because the finish problems were too bad (bottom photo). So I gave it a good workout. The blade performed miserably. The softness was readily apparent. Yes, used as intended, it was a workable knife. Used properly, it could last a lifetime. But it could not take any abuse.

Many modern steels are tougher, stronger and have much, much better wear resistance. They will greatly outperform Randall's O1 or 440B. That's why I'll never buy another Randall.

That’s disappointing!!! I know 440B is a mediocre steel by today’s standards but I figured Randall’s would be among the best.

 

[pholder]

Oh there are most certainly legitimate experts out there.

For this topic -- steels used in knife blades, someone like Larrin Thomas is an honest to goodness expert. Someone with the formal education (PhD in MatE) and extensive hands-on experience to legitimately hold that the title of "expert" when it comes to this subject.

Take 2 individuals with the same credentials you may have 2 different opinions, so who then would be the expert? still learning.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

Some knife makers and knife companies are primarily selling an image rather than focusing on creating a high quality product.

Unfortunately, many buyers can't tell the difference.

 

[000Robert]

Except that shane45-1911 is completely correct. "When those simple knives crack and break" is an entirely hilarious First World point of view. Go visit a Third World indigenous culture in say, South America sometime, where there are families still using simple carbon steel machetes that their parents owned and maybe even grandparents to cut a living out of the jungle. ESEE has done it, which is why they still use simple 1095 on their knives, because it simply works. Those folks' simple knives, they aren't super steels, but they're still working, primarily because those folks aren't dumb, and they use a knife for what it's supposed to be used for: cutting things. Not prying, not levering, just cutting. As for the "super knives", most of which are owned by people who don't have adequate sharpening equipment to put an edge back on 3V or similar, how much work will they do once the owner has gone on a camping trip or two and blunted the factory edge chopping everything he could get his hands on?

So, not2sharp was entirely on point with his assessment.

That's some good points. My main thought is that everything is great with lesser steels as long as all is well. I have a habit of getting in a survivalist mentality when talking about knives and steels. And most of those knives will fail if asked to do jobs other than simple cutting. As far as sharpening, I would hope that those unfortunate people could get a diamond stone.

 

[shane45-1911]

There’s lots of variables in the way a person can get the best value and performance from each type of steel for the different types of knives in the different kinds of tasks.

I think after 3 pages (and counting) in this thread, this single statement says it all.

 

[Blues]

I'm not going to walk up to a Gurkha and tell him his khukuri is made from inferior steel and is worthless for anything but an ornament.

But that's just me.

I have many examples of indigenous knives made by craftsmen in various places in the world from South America to the Montagnards of Vietnam...and they all work as intended.

I enjoy the knives in my collection, from the simple steels of blades carried by our forefathers, to the Maxamets and current crop of steels pushing the envelope.

But I am not willing to case aspersions on what is tried and true and has been proven by hands much more able than my own.

Yes, steel has come a long way. And yet the past endures. Somewhere in that continuum there is something for everyone and every purpose.

 

[gazz98]

There is a place in the world for people who buy Mtechs and a place in the world for people who buy M4, Cru-wear, or Maxamet with Ti with flame anodizing and mother of pearl inserts.

I'm in the "middle". Most of my knives are Spyderco VG-10.

Variety and choice are a beautiful thing.

As for being an "expert", I would think using a variety of knives and steels for over 30+ years does give me a *little* credibility in speaking about knives, steel, blade geometry, handle materials, etc. despite some poorly worded threads I posted here over the years. Grammer aint my strong soot.

 

[Danke42]

Little known fact from the day of his birth in 1929 Bob Loveless was working on a time machine so he could go Back to the Future and grab up some of those sweet sweet super steels for his line and also as a work around for the nine month wait for a Randall blade.

Sadly that dream was never realized and most Loveless knives were made in the steels of the day.

 

[spoonrobot]

The transformation from knives into products you buy, and then buy more - as opposed to tools you buy and use, replace when needed - is the main driving force behind this idea. Social media exacerbates. People don't care about what a steel does or doesn't do, they want a new product to buy and feel good about because they got a good response on social media that makes them feel good about owning it.