Exploding knife market?!

SharpByCoop said:
The REAL Loveless market is blasting through the roof. That's astounding to even me. Good alternatives are a value.
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Kohai999 said:
Personally, I don't think like you and Coop seem to about the "REAL" Loveless knives. I think that they are all "REAL", and Jim Merritt is making them about as good as they have ever been right now. Lovett makes knives very close, but they are not the "same". Only ONE shop has produced the REAL Loveless knives, and that they are continuing to do. Food for thought.
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Point of clarification on my statement: On the above when I refer to 'REAL" Loveless knives, I am referring to knives made out of the Loveless shop--not Lovett's, Parkers, Browns, or Takahashi's. Real Loveless knives ARE made in his shop with the help from Jim Merrit and it's been that way for decades now.

STeven I agree with you 100% on this.

I am a bystander in watching this market, too. No dog that can bite.... :)

Coop
 
Historically, most of the great Masters of art have created studios and employed assistants to help out with the more routine/mundane tasks, while the Maestro himself delt with the big artistic issues/questions. Many works of art are attributed to the school of X, Y or Z, but they NEVER command the same price as a works of art that can be established to have be done entirely by the Master's hand.

That is just the way it is, and will be. ;)
 
Dear WWG,

I'll be brief, can you say "pompous ass"?

Remember interframes in the '90s....

Damascus autos....

High-end engraved folders....

Probably the THREE most desirable knives in the collectors' market TODAY!

Yes bubble do break, but like real estate and blue chip stocks QUALITY pays long term dividends.

and BTW WWG you are an

INCREDIBLE

POMPOUS

ASS!

Since I started this thread, WWG hijacked it, and I diagnosed three people with cancer under the age of thirty today (I am on my third martini) I am NOT apologizing!@!

However I will refrain from using the JERKIT smiley! :p
 
Marcangle,

Sorry to hear you had to diagnose 3 people under 30 with cancer today.

Interesting self-diagnoses. So how does the physician heal thyself...yep Alcohol! You know there was probably a time when it only took 1 martini to help "it" go away.

You sorry slob, sober up and stop feeling sorry for yourself. You aren't the one with cancer. You friggin self absorbed cry baby.

If you want to take out your pain and frustration on someone, go look in a mirror. Every one has bad days.... Talk about a Pompous Ass; imagine how those people who just found out they have cancer feel tonight!

WWG
 
Hi Kevin,

Reworded my post.

The answers to my erased questions were for Marc to answer, not me.

Kevin, I have a suggestion for you. Check out John W. Smith. Top 5 Folder maker on anyone's list! Exceptional value for the money!

WWG
 
Absolutely true! I can attest to this from my Noguchi lamp experience. All my lamps were signed ( I should say 'Stamped') by the shop when he was alive. These lamps are worth much more than post mortem editions. By the time a Master has reached stellar notoriety, much of the work is done by bottega apprentices. There's the second catch.
Not only is it an art handicaping the shakedown survivors, the highest art is in spotting a star early in their career! Those first glimmers of genius are the ones to snatch up and hold becaue of their scarcity and historical value. Ironically, anyone's (Other than Mozart that is) early work is likely to be unpolished- even if ingenious.:eek:

ptgdvc said:
Historically, most of the great Masters of art have created studios and employed assistants to help out with the more routine/mundane tasks, while the Maestro himself delt with the big artistic issues/questions. Many works of art are attributed to the school of X, Y or Z, but they NEVER command the same price as a works of art that can be established to have be done entirely by the Master's hand.

That is just the way it is, and will be. ;)
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Hi Moodino

the highest art is in spotting a star early in their career!
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Excellent point.

I try to find a "new" maker with talent at every show I attend. I have had clients introduce me to makers I am working with today.

WWG
 
ptgdvc said:
Historically, most of the great Masters of art have created studios and employed assistants to help out with the more routine/mundane tasks, while the Maestro himself delt with the big artistic issues/questions. Many works of art are attributed to the school of X, Y or Z, but they NEVER command the same price as a works of art that can be established to have be done entirely by the Master's hand.

That is just the way it is, and will be. ;)
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True, Peter.......but there is always the possibility of the "Rembrandt Project " problem down the road. For those who do not know about this, a number of years ago, a group was formed to examine all of the paintings attributed to Rembrandt Van Rijn. As he became more famous and busier, he would indeed have his "students" doing some of the work. What this project was attempting to do was detrmine which of the paintings attributed to Rembrandt had too much or all of the actual physical work done by others in the shop. You saw this with a number of the Italian and Flemish painters too, so you will see painting labeled as "School of" Rubens, etc At the end of the day, a goodly number of paintings in the hands of museums and collectors were declared to no longer be "Rembrandts" and were now "School of Rembrandt" The net effect was that a $50 million painting was now a $2 million painting. This has never been a problem with Randalls and Ruanas because, even though they are still handmade like they have always been, they have been "School of" knives so to speak for decades and have a high collectability of their own that is independent of the rest of the custom knife market. The "Rembrandt Project" like issue seems like a possiblity for knives like ones from the Loveless shop if they prices continue to rise.
Another thing about Bob Lovelees that may be unique is that when he burst onto the scene, he was like Athena sprung from the head of Zeus fully formed. His stuff seems like it was high and tight from day one and he changed the custom business and made guys like Bo Randall actually have to work really hard on fit and finish. I would think that some of Bob's older knives would be worth more than the newer ones, whereas with guys like Bill Moran, I would think that the post Lime Kiln/damscus reintro knives and particularly the knives form the 80's and early 90's would be the more desirable and expensive because the old ones were kinda rough. The same with D.E. Henry's 3rd and 4th Gen bowies. I guess a way to look at it is that once Bob figured out what he wanted to do, he got so good at it so early that there wasn't really many ways for him to get "better" To me, Loveless knives are amazing works, but they are somewhat stagnant BY CHOICE. Compare that to Jerry Fisk. I think that it is safe to say that you will get a LOT more money for one of his current pieces, particularly the NLT knives that you would for a similar knife from 1989.
 
Joe,

In the world of fine art, THE most expensive words ever spoken are "attributed to". They are a virtual kiss of death to the value of any major work of art. The flip side is that IF the provenance can be established beyond any reasonable doubt that it was indeed made by the Maestro, the piece becomes GOLDEN.

P
 
ptgdvc said:
Joe,

In the world of fine art, THE most expensive words ever spoken are "attributed to". They are a virtual kiss of death to the value of any major work of art. The flip side is that IF the provenance can be established beyond any reasonable doubt that it was indeed made by the Maestro, the piece becomes GOLDEN.

P
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A number of the victims of the Rembrandt Project were in some museums that you would think would have known better. The "high" Renaissance paintings wold present more of problem because back then you had "art factories' churning out commssions for the nobilty, the church and the newly wealthy merchant class of Europe. By the time of the Impressionist movement, that was no longer the case, so all you have to worry about are outright forgeries, much like you do with the pre and early Renaissance stuff. Now, of course,even in the boom market of the 1600's, there were still a number of painters like Vermeer, who still did the "sole authorship" thing......oops....did I bring up that contentious term again? lol
 
Joe,

Exactly one Vermeer has been publicly sold in the last 83 years. It brought $40 million in 2004 at Sothebys. I suspect that it might crack $60 million today. That sole authorship thing ain't too bad, imho.

P
 
ptgdvc said:
Joe,

Exactly one Vermeer has been publicly sold in the last 83 years. It brought $40 million in 2004 at Sothebys. I suspect that it might crack $60 million today. That sole authorship thing ain't too bad, imho.

P
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Back in the crazy days of the late 80's when the Japanese insurance copanies were buying up all of the Impressionist stuff they could get their hands on, it was estimated that if Van Gogh's "Starry Night" or it's equal, like maybe "Cottages at Corderville" had come on the market, they might have fetched up to $100 million. I have heard that the insurance value calimed for the "Mona Lisa" is probably in the $200 million plus range.I can't remember where that Impressionist market topped out during the couple of crazy pahses in the last 20 years, but I was thinking that it was like $60 million for a single painting. The Impressionists and later painters, especially guys like Monet and Picasso, were very prolific and worked for a LONG time and almost all of their paintings were sold to private individuals, so they still pop up occasionally. The Old Masters most famous stuff tends to be "gummint property" a lot of times, although you do occasionally see some real nice stuff in "privately" owned museums. But not much for sale that you would recognize at fist glance.
 
From my stand point, the market is "VERY" good for some makers, and not so for others. I have never seen anything as solid as the Loveless market. I spend about as much time watching it as anyone I know. And have been for over 40 years! WWG says he has no don in this fight, but is always quick to jump into any discussion of Loveless prices. He doesn't collect or sell Loveless pieces, yet always has an opinion. A negative one. Makes you wonder just what his true agenda is. He told me just a few years ago that he wouldn't invest in a Loveless because it they had toped out. Of course having opinions of my own, (go figure), I disagreed with him. A year later, he said the same thing to me. But says I, they have gone up another grand on the after market for a simple hunter. They aren't going to do it again says he. Well, they did. Last year, same conversation here on the forms. Well guess what? They are up again. I am investing in Knives. Care to guess which maker? Mike I am going to continue thought on this thread at Real Loveless?
 
To make money with a Loveless, you need to know when to sell. It's one thing to be able to ride a wave, it's another to know when to get out. It is my opinion that most people who bought a Loveless at the prices reached in the last few years will loose money on them when they eventually sell. If they sold now, they'd make money, but most won't (and if many did the market would crash).

Mike - you gave no argument why WWG was wrong. You said his predictions didn't come true, but that doesn't mean that he isn't right. Let me give you an example. Late in 98, some (few) analysts were saying that the market for internet stock was completely overvalued? Were they right? Yes - but for 2 years the market kept on moving up.

Your argument ("Hey, they've been going up!") is the absolut worse argument one can give in favor of investing in any thing. To buy things that have been going up is a sure recipe for losing money, over the long run. This is why "value" indices systematically outperform "growth" indices over long horizons.

The whole idea that prices will go up forever is so screwed up I don't know where to start. There's a chute knife for sale on one of the retailer's site right now for $12,500... That's a mind blowing amount to pay for a knife which isn't unique, and in fact isn't even that rare.
 
Joss said:
To make money with a Loveless, you need to know when to sell. It's one thing to be able to ride a wave, it's another to know when to get out. It is my opinion that most people who bought a Loveless at the prices reached in the last few years will loose money on them when they eventually sell. If they sold now, they'd make money, but most won't (and if many did the market would crash).

Mike - you gave no argument why WWG was wrong. You said his predictions didn't come true, but that doesn't mean that he isn't right. Let me give you an example. Late in 98, some (few) analysts were saying that the market for internet stock was completely overvalued? Were they right? Yes - but for 2 years the market kept on moving up.

Your argument ("Hey, they've been going up!") is the absolut worse argument one can give in favor of investing in any thing. To buy things that have been going up is a sure recipe for losing money, over the long run. This is why "value" indices systematically outperform "growth" indices over long horizons.

The whole idea that prices will go up forever is so screwed up I don't know where to start. There's a chute knife for sale on one of the retailer's site right now for $12,500... That's a mind blowing amount to pay for a knife which isn't unique, and in fact isn't even that rare.
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Good points Joss. I would only add to your final point from comments from another thread, That's a mind blowing amount to pay for a knife which isn't unique, and in fact isn't even that rare "and that the maker is selling for FAR LESS than that $12,500 asking price."
 
You are correct to a point Joss. I am telling you that wwg has Bent preaching doom on the loveless knives, not because he really knows the Loveless market, but because he doesn't like Loveless personally. I'm talking Loveless the man. and there fore he doesn't like Loveless Knives. His advice on Loveless is from an emotional, and personal level. Not a professional level. I will add to this, i am not talking about the artificially expanded prices. If Bob would take your order, Which he will not. Not unless you are a long standing customer. The price on that same knife is more like 4500-5500. right now, today. Are you going to tell me that you are going to lose money at the current price? I'll tell you what. You get the knife from the shop, and I'll give you a few bucks for your trouble. And I can tell you right now. Bob and I could care less what the collector market is. We make tools. Very good tools. But tools none the less. We do what we do because we love it, and know what we are doing. Not art for art sake as many do. You like it, buy it. You don't, don't! One thing for sure. It is the best investment in a piece of sporting equipment you will ever likely make. You want investment grade art, go to a museum! Don't call me for an art piece! And for Gods sake, don't call Bob and ask for one! I would beable to hear him all the way over he in Texas! May i sugggest that you go over to the thread, Real Loveless, Food for thought. It gets more into what I am saying. Mike
 
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