Exploding knife market?!

You can't fault the maker for the inflated price the dealer is asking.
And you can't fault the dealer for asking an inflated price if the buyer is willing to pay it.

I predict a few major Loveless collectors will start sell at some point, which will create panic amount loveless speculators and then supply and demand will take over. Then I will get my chute knife;)

Yes, even if it hasn't been beat with a hammer.:D
 
I'm sure Bob or Jim would be more than happy to give it a whack! I saw a ball peen hammer over the work bench! Hee! Mike
 
Here's something we can think about,..."Historical significance".

Some "artists" or "makers", and some specific works will have "historical significance" to varying degrees and some won't. A lot of it will have to do with "timing", when the maker made the knife or knives of significance,... at what point in history?

How do certain artists and certain knives achieve it? What are the prerequisites?

Which makers will have the greatest influence on the course of modern knifemaking?

How will certain collectors recognize it before it's established or before the makers die?
 
An astute set of challenge questions from Tai Goo
Based on my annoyingly long experience in the 'Arts'...
"What makes a Legend Most?" seems to depend on the following:
1) Authentic connoisseurship and curatorship. When the combined efforts of a brand or author's paying 'followers' (AKA patrons) and subject matter experts or curators 'agree' on that person's rank, then their work achieves a certain status on the hierachical totem pole. Over the longer span of time, this ranking can shift or be solidified. Will any musician ever achieve the subliminal rank reached by Mozart? Will any inventor trump Leonardo Da Vinci? Only time will tell
2) Intensity of Media hype at the strategic moment. Canvassing support 'when the iron is hottest' and striking ones brand image indelibly into the steel of the community's media channels is a very, very good method for achieving fame! Again, to allude to the art history. Georges Braque -a fine contenmporary of Pablo Picasso's, never achieved the same level of fame as the latter in the Cubist school. Whereas Braque was demure and his palette, subued hues of earth tones, Picasso painted with bold and easier to reproduce colors - This not only made Picasso the darling of curators and dealers, but of book publishers as well! More books sold > greater notoriety> greater fame > higher valuation of works> More books etc ... you get the picture
3) Value and Durability of the artist's brand (AKA Brand Equity)
Genius endures. What more need I say than that? It simply does! Someday, someone will come up with a software program that maps an artists profile and rates their fame and endurance on a metric scale. Whomsoever composes that- will become filthy rich!:D
 
Moodino said:
An astute set of challenge questions from Tai Goo
Based on my annoyingly long experience in the 'Arts'...
"What makes a Legend Most?" seems to depend on the following:
1) Authentic connoisseurship and curatorship. When the combined efforts of a brand or author's paying 'followers' (AKA patrons) and subject matter experts or curators 'agree' on that person's rank, then their work achieves a certain status on the hierachical totem pole. Over the longer span of time, this ranking can shift or be solidified. Will any musician ever achieve the subliminal rank reached by Mozart? Will any inventor trump Leonardo Da Vinci? Only time will tell
2) Intensity of Media hype at the strategic moment. Canvassing support 'when the iron is hottest' and striking ones brand image indelibly into the steel of the community's media channels is a very, very good method for achieving fame! Again, to allude to the art history. Georges Braque -a fine contenmporary of Pablo Picasso's, never achieved the same level of fame as the latter in the Cubist school. Whereas Braque was demure and his palette, subued hues of earth tones, Picasso painted with bold and easier to reproduce colors - This not only made Picasso the darling of curators and dealers, but of book publishers as well! More books sold > greater notoriety> greater fame > higher valuation of works> More books etc ... you get the picture
3) Value and Durability of the artist's brand (AKA Brand Equity)
Genius endures. What more need I say than that? It simply does! Someday, someone will come up with a software program that maps an artists profile and rates their fame and endurance on a metric scale. Whomsoever composes that- will become filthy rich!:D
Click to expand...

So,... it may not be completely haphazard and random. It may be "conceptualized", premeditated and put forth,... to move the art/craft forward.

It may be a goal,... that only a few can understand and achieve. :)
 
For those of you that have not bought or sold a Loveless Knife I wonder where your info come's from?
That $12,500 chute Knife may soon be 15,000.
This is a market that continues to climb,it reaches one peak, slows to a near stop than climbs again.
For those who are not willing to take a chance you may remain in the wings and watch the intelligent collector's reap the rewards.
Dave
 
;)
Ellis said:
For those who are not willing to take a chance you may remain in the wings and watch the intelligent collector's reap the rewards.
Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,

You are frequently a voice of knowledge and reason, but that above statement is needlessly inflammatory, elitist and flat-out snobby.:rolleyes:

That said, I agree with much of it, but 5 figures is too far out of the realm of an extremely high number of active knife collectors to be rolling the dice with, intelligent or not.

Personally, I can do it, but would not want to, at this point. Guess that makes me a dumbass, huh?;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
No,I was speaking of the uninformed making comments. Until you play this market and take your lumps with your profits you are on the outside looking in.
Was not intended to be snobbish nor elitist but for more years than I can count I have been hearing the same death knell for Loveless Knive's.
Tell JW Denton that he will lose money on his Collection.
Again,just my 2 cents
 
By "chance" I did not strictly mean on Loveless Knive's.Any investment has it's risks inherently. Those that gambled with Loveless.Walker,Lake,Schmidt and Stieneau are currently reaping the rewards.
Got to take chance to make the $$
Dave
 
Knives are small beer in terms of money compared to other art forms like painting, sculphure and installations. Well known modern artists working in these fields can get hundreds of thousands for their works.

The difference between knives and these others is not the artistic merit of the achievements but the marketing and sales structure that is around them and their history in the establishment. There are many art schools, many schools of art and many art dealers, promoters, magazines, websites, galleries in most large cities and art writers.

They get wealthy people to see art as something that could enhaunce their lives in terms of being seen as having an understanding and appreciating the arts, being part of an art crique with like minded people and a patron of the arts. High spending patrons get invited to gallery events, access to the "hot" new art and generally made to feel special. Marketing art is an expensive business but wealthy clients will pay well for what they want or what they are told as the next big thing.

As far as I'm aware the knife purveyors don't really do this and don't get the bucks other more commercially savving art sectors get.
 
Shing said:
Knives are small beer in terms of money compared to other art forms like painting, sculphure and installations. Well known modern artists working in these fields can get hundreds of thousands for their works.

The difference between knives and these others is not the artistic merit of the achievements but the marketing and sales structure that is around them and their history in the establishment. There are many art schools, many schools of art and many art dealers, promoters, magazines, websites, galleries in most large cities and art writers.

They get wealthy people to see art as something that could enhaunce their lives in terms of being seen as having an understanding and appreciating the arts, being part of an art crique with like minded people and a patron of the arts. High spending patrons get invited to gallery events, access to the "hot" new art and generally made to feel special. Marketing art is an expensive business but wealthy clients will pay well for what they want or what they are told as the next big thing.

As far as I'm aware the knife purveyors don't really do this and don't get the bucks other more commercially savving art sectors get.
Click to expand...
Unless it is a fancy Michael Price knife
:D
 
Ellis said:
Tell JW Denton that he will lose money on his Collection.
Again,just my 2 cents
Click to expand...


That was the first thing that hit me when this discussion branched off.

I don't think J.W. will come out on the short end either. :D
 
The last time I thought of Loveless prices being too high was when I was selling them for $185 and thinking that anyone who paid that for a hunting knife must be out of their minds.

Would those who think that single authorship is so important please explain to me why Loveless-Johnson knives sell for 3 to 5 times what any other loveless mark does?
 
I'm smart enough to know that I'm too stupid to accurately predict which way the market for high-dollar collector knives is headed. But I've also been a student of the markets long enough to recognize certain warning signs when I see them. One such warning sign is the feeling of invulnerability among a market's participants.

I'm hearing that sentiment expressed quite a bit these days. And the markets tend to have a cruel and dispassionate way of reminding us now and again that prices can and do decline.

One highly regarded purveyor of high-end customs earlier suggested that a $12,500 Loveless Chute may soon be worth $15,000. That's a 20% increase in value. How long do you suppose that rate of appreciation can be sustained before the market corrects? 20 years? 10 years? 1 year?

As I said earlier, I think the market is fundamentally sound, but I do think there are pockets of excess and I feel that it's important for collectors to temper their expectations. Irrational expectations often lead to disappointment.

P.S. - I often like to remind my colleagues at work that, when it comes to the markets, we're never "right" or "wrong", we're just "early" or "late" ;) Timing is indeed everything. Ask Alan Greenspan, who famously declared in 1996 that the stock markets were showing signs of "irrational exuberance." He was proven wrong for four years before he was proven right.
 
I think the situation with vintage cars is worth considering. Before the mid 80's, vintage or old cars were stockcar racing fodder or an interest of enthuasitic amateurs and a small number of customisers. You could get an old rare Ferrari for a few thousand. Then the 80's came along and new money from brash city types had to go somewhere and old cars were it. Old rust heaps were restored and sold for tens or hundreds of thousands. Some of these cars had genuine merit but a lot were just tarted up and sold with a great deal of vigour.

I like to think some of the knives that have artistic merit are also in that pre-discovery stage and at some point their true artistic merit will be recognised and achieve the sort of money that other forms of art like high end watches also has. Although like high end art, high end watch makers and sellers vigourously market their wares to a wealthy elite.
 
Kevin Jones said:
You can't fault the maker for the inflated price the dealer is asking.
And you can't fault the dealer for asking an inflated price if the buyer is willing to pay it.

I predict a few major Loveless collectors will start sell at some point, which will create panic amount loveless speculators and then supply and demand will take over. Then I will get my chute knife;)

Yes, even if it hasn't been beat with a hammer.:D
Click to expand...

Kevin: I have to laugh at the idea of more than one Loveless collector wanting to sell his entire collection at once. There are more people out there wanting to buy Loveless knives than there are knives available. If you are waiting for the market price to drop on Loveless knives you may have a long wait.

Of course I watched Ed Henry ruin himself, but, Ed's market was much thinner than Loveless's. Ed's market has finally recovered.
 
A. G. Russell said:
Kevin: I have to laugh at the idea of more than one Loveless collector wanting to sell his entire collection at once. There are more people out there wanting to buy Loveless knives than there are knives available. If you are waiting for the market price to drop on Loveless knives you may have a long wait.

Of course I watched Ed Henry ruin himself, but, Ed's market was much thinner than Loveless's. Ed's market has finally recovered.
Click to expand...
Good point, Mr. Russell. I think that Loveless has become a "custom brand" much like the stained glasswork of Louis C. Tiffany did. There are others in the shop, but Bob is the man and the guiding force.
 
Have been hearing that one cant make money on a Loveless since the early 90s.
No surprise that those that dont collect/appreciate his knives have the same things to say all the time.
Have never met anyone that sold a Loveless at a loss.
 
I had the oportunity to buy a Loveless semi skinner for $1500 6 years ago. I didn't.
Then I could have bought a double edged fighter (like the big one but about 6" blade IIRC, don't know the name) for about $3500, 2-3 years ago. I didn't.
Both knives were already in France, I fondled them and couldn't decide to buy.
I wish I bought them both. :D
IMO a plateau will be reached regarding Loveless prices, but not in the very near future.
 
One other point to drive home.
'Lost art' commands high value and endures the test of time. As the number of practitioners of a secret, difficult or 'lost method' dwindle, the value of thier works climbs. Thinking back, this is easy to allude to in the crafts, where unique or difficult methods or 'secret' ingredients made the few extant samples so rare, even if their academic, aesthetic or practical value was less stellar The Stradivarius Violin and items in it's class stand out as exceptions- a lost method and material producing a mellifluous inimitable sound.
Who knows, maybe INFINI is the alchemists wunder-steel for this decade? Or perhaps a certain blade design becomes an emblem of perfection for it's class and that design endures for decades- Japanese samurai swords spring to mind.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top