Exploding knife market?!

I agree with Mr. Russell. I bought my first Moran, Fisk and Loveless knives from him back in the 1990's. I still own them. I believe that I could double the amount of money that I paid for those knives if I sold them now. Nothing is guaranteed to keep going up in value, but a long time ago I learned that the bigger the name of the maker, the better chance for a good return.
I also agree with Dave Ellis. I have purchased many knives from him that seemed expensive at the time but have continued to appreciate. I think that the key is to concentrate on the top makers. It costs more to collect them, but there is a better chance of a good return.
Jim Treacy
 
Kevin Jones said:
You can't fault the maker for the inflated price the dealer is asking.
And you can't fault the dealer for asking an inflated price if the buyer is willing to pay it.

I predict a few major Loveless collectors will start sell at some point, which will create panic amount loveless speculators and then supply and demand will take over. Then I will get my chute knife;)

Yes, even if it hasn't been beat with a hammer.:D
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A. G. Russell said:
Kevin: I have to laugh at the idea of more than one Loveless collector wanting to sell his entire collection at once. There are more people out there wanting to buy Loveless knives than there are knives available. If you are waiting for the market price to drop on Loveless knives you may have a long wait.

Of course I watched Ed Henry ruin himself, but, Ed's market was much thinner than Loveless's. Ed's market has finally recovered.
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Mr. Russell, I didn't imply that more than one collector would immediately sell their entire collection at once. But that longtime collectors will most likely start selling at some point for estate planning purposes or just to take profits. This, in conjunction with the nervousness of speculative new collector/investors can have a volatile effect on a collectibles market with substantial recent run-ups in price. I have seen this happen in sectors of the classic car arena which resulted in 25% to 30% corrections.

I don't currently see Loveless availability as a problem. In the past two years there have been quite a few very nice skinners, DP hunters, chutes, fighters, Jr. & big bears available for sale on the various websites that specialize in Loveless knives. I made an offer on a very nice stag chute knife just several weeks ago.

I would love to own a nice Loveless piece for my collection, however having a problem justifying one at the current prices where I could buy three or four very nice Fisk, Dean, Dunn, Hancock or Hanson Bowies.

In my opinion, these makers knives will also show nice appreciation over the coming years.
 
mlovett said:
I am telling you that wwg has Bent preaching doom on the loveless knives, not because he really knows the Loveless market, but because he doesn't like Loveless personally. I'm talking Loveless the man. and there fore he doesn't like Loveless Knives. His advice on Loveless is from an emotional, and personal level. Not a professional level.
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Stone throwing is an ill-advised activity when one is standing in a glass house.

Roger
 
Kevin Jones said:
Mr. Russell, I didn't imply that more than one collector would immediately sell their entire collection at once. But that longtime collectors will most likely start selling at some point for estate planning purposes or just to take profits. This, in conjunction with the nervousness of speculative new collector/investors can have a volatile effect on a collectibles market with substantial recent run-ups in price. I have seen this happen in sectors of the classic car arena which resulted in 25% to 30% corrections.

I don't currently see Loveless availability as a problem. In the past two years there have been quite a few very nice skinners, DP hunters, chutes, fighters, Jr. & big bears available for sale on the various websites that specialize in Loveless knives. I made an offer on a very nice stag chute knife just several weeks ago.

I would love to own a nice Loveless piece for my collection, however having a problem justifying one at the current prices where I could buy three or four very nice Fisk, Dean, Dunn, Hancock or Hanson Bowies.

In my opinion, these makers knives will also show nice appreciation over the coming years.
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I have been listening to people tell me that they cannot justify the price of a Loveless ever sense they were $95. I have been telling people that long that they should bite the bullet and buy the knife, I am still hearing folks tell me how much they wish they had listened. New people, like kevin keep putting it off though. Same advice for Scagle, moran Bose. When they belong to me, I seldom sell them, I just buy them. I buy a few of the makers you name but I do not understand that market well enough to advise people on it.
 
The funny thing is that everything I read about the value of a Loveless knife as an investment are things people used to say about eToys stock all the way to Fall of 99.

People made the right call when they were buying Loveless back 10, or 5 years ago. More power to them, I certainly can respect that. But that's not what we're talking about here. What it is is whether Loveless knife are a smart purchase now, or for the last 2-3 years, at the current market prices. I think not.
 
A. G. Russell said:
I have been listening to people tell me that they cannot justify the price of a Loveless ever sense they were $95. I have been telling people that long that they should bite the bullet and buy the knife, I am still hearing folks tell me how much they wish they had listened. New people, like kevin keep putting it off though. Same advice for Scagle, moran Bose. When they belong to me, I seldom sell them, I just buy them. I buy a few of the makers you name but I do not understand that market well enough to advise people on it.
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I do understand the ABS market, so I collect/invest in those makers.

On the other hand I don't know the Loveless market, but respect the man and his knives, yet know what I'm willing to pay for one. And I'm not trying to advise on Loveless, just stating my opinions based on my general collecting and investing experience.

And if I never get one, no regret. As I enjoy the history of the forged knife and dealing with and supporting the ABS makers.

Thanks AG, as I have enjoyed this discussion as I did your talk at Jerry's last fall.
 
Joss said:
The funny thing is that everything I read about the value of a Loveless knife as an investment are things people used to say about eToys stock all the way to Fall of 99.

People made the right call when they were buying Loveless back 10, or 5 years ago. More power to them, I certainly can respect that. But that's not what we're talking about here. What it is is whether Loveless knife are a smart purchase now, or for the last 2-3 years, at the current market prices. I think not.
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well I paid 11,000 each for two loveless johnsons a year ago and 3,500 for a used hunter a couple of months ago. I guess I am not very smart.
 
I believe some important points about history are being missed. Once a certain artist's work reaches stratospheric valuation, there is a good reason to believe that even with periodic ups and downs, that the long term value trend is more likely to be up. Demand being highly sensitive to percieved value, indeed valuations can fluctuate. However, once a work passes the fad stage and becomes a medium for exchange (currency) there's no stopping it from a long term upwards trend. Many Ferraris, for example are limited editions and are pre-sold to investors who cold store them ( except for that recent Enzo that was crashed). Owners of These rare cars can pretty much use those investments as a medium for trade. This goes for any recognised commodity that is not easily reproduced in quantity. It simply has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the object.
 
can you not buy a Loveless just because you really want one? now I understand about the investment side and wanting to be wise with your money, but does every knife purchase have to be micro-analyzed and studied to the point of paranoia?
 
severedthumbs said:
can you not buy a Loveless just because you really want one? now I understand about the investment side and wanting to be wise with your money, but does every knife purchase have to be micro-analyzed and studied to the point of paranoia?
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Well at least for me, not to the point of paranoia, but yes quite a bit of consideration when spending $10k -$15K for a knife.:eek:

So are you saying, you casually fork over that kind of $$$ for a knife on a whim?:confused:

Boy, it must be nice. :)
 
HI Roger,

Thanks for your post.

Mike, your focus of the custom knife market is exceptionally narrow. You have understood that from the beginning. Which is why when you got back into making knives several years ago you called me. Yes, you called me! Why because you wanted to know who knew the market so after getting my name from Kit Carson and George Herron you called me.

During the course of several phone conversations I ordered several knives. You delivered 2 and then the excuses began. 2003, ran into 2004 which ran into 2005...nothing but excuses. Then when face to face at the 2005 Spirit of Steel Show in front of Louis Chow's table. You confirmed my order from 2003, wrote down in your book what my order was and told me I would have the knives by December of 2005. So easy on the "professionalism" thing. That is until you can show some.

You are correct I do not care for Bob Loveless the man. Not after seeing the way he treated potential customers at a Blade Show in the late 80's. For the life of me I could not figure out why anyone would treat a potential client that way.

Obviously judging by the amount of money people have invested in Loveless and Loveless Shop knives. They have decided to look past the makers personality (D.E. Henry was no day at the beach and as AG pointed out his knives are selling very well in the after market) and the origin of the knives. Nothing wrong with that; as the saying goes you buy the knife not the maker. I am a strong supporter of capitalism.

When Bob got so far behind in the 70's he recommend another maker to his clients who made a knife similar to what he made. That maker was of course George Herron!

After meeting both men I decided to buy knives from George. To give a time reference, the Loveless Big Bear was $800. Most of you reading this will not remember this price for a Big Bear or even heard of such thing. This was at the Blade Show on a Saturday and there were knives available. So this was before the "craze" started.

I bought and sold knives made by George Herron...still do. For several reasons:

1) George actually made his knives. Yes you can say made in the Loveless shop it is a Loveless. I don't buy into that. Honestly, I think one of the main thing that separates custom knives from semi-production is the man or womans name that is on the blade....Is the one who made it. As well I think you will see collectors start advertising that they have knives made by Bob Loveless.

2) George's knives were better made than Bob Loveless knives...whoever made them.

3) The man himself. He was there to help collectors not berate them in public to make himself feel better or whatever Loveless reason(s) was/were.

If collectors and dealers through the buying and selling of Loveless and Loveless "Shop" knives. Are brining in investment type money, so much the better for the custom knife market in general. Hopefully these collectors will look at other sectors of the custom knife market and bring in other buyers/investors as well. An infusion of capital is always welcome into any endeavor! I am for anything that brings more collectors into the custom knife market.

Mike in the future do not presuppose to speak for me or about my "agenda". Remember, if you knew so much about the custom knife market as you think...I would have called you.

Didn't want to be accused of Hijacking the thread again, I just thought I should set the record straight with Mike.

Oh, and if you are going to have a lengthy response for God's sake use a paragraph every once in awhile. :D

WWG
 
Hi AG,

No one is questioning your intelligence. We all know you have been around way to long not to have had a client or two in mind when you dropped almost $25,000 on those three knives. ;)

You of all people know the short and long term markets for those knives. As such you were willing to make an investment of both time and capital expecting a healthy return on investment.

You are taking advantage of an "exploding" market. That is what smart businessmen and/or investors do.

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi AG,

No one is questioning your intelligence. We all know you have been around way to long not to have had a client or two in mind when you dropped almost $25,000 on those three knives. ;)

You of all people know the short and long term markets for those knives. As such you were willing to make an investment of both time and capital expecting a healthy return on investment.

You are taking advantage of an "exploding" market. That is what smart businessmen and/or investors do.

WWG
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Sorry, like I said I must not be so smart, I thought they were worth the money and I put them away for a rainy day. No buyer in mind. I have been turning away folks wanting to buy my loveless knives for some time.
 
I wasn't making the Loveless Connection Knives in 2003, And I have said nothing here that you have not said to me. You have made your self quite clear. The # 1 reason that I will not Honor any orders from you is # 1. Your attitude,#2 Your insults to both Bob and Myself. #3. You are just too damed cocky! The reason I don't take deposits, is for one you never no what tomorrow may bring. Secondly I don't want to be obligated to a prick like you. I have always been in the position of making my knives for whom I want. And you ain't it Buddy! Mike
 
Which reminds me. You walked up to me at Lou's table twice asking when and if Lovett was going to show up I told you twice then I was Lovett. You totally ignored what I told you. Screw your head on straight. There is a world going on around you, and you aren't at the center of it. You need to give others a little credit for having a little sense! You are not the know all end all of knife collecting. Not by a long shot. You don't like Loveless, Loveless Knives, Me or my knives. So why are you even on this thread. I'm through with bantering with you. You simply aren't worth my time. Mike
 
The knife market is as funny as any other collectible market. I have spoken to several very knowlegable folks and they tell me that my Moran is worth pretty much what I paid for it even though, in theory, it should be worth more. One person told me that the Moran market is flat and he is not sure why. There aren't going to be any more Bill Moran knives......ever. Contrast this not only with the Loveless market, but with other areas. I have a 1966 Fender Vibrolux guitar amplifier that is probably worth $400-500 more than what I paid for it a year ago. Ditto on a 2005 Gibson Les Paul Standard 1959 Historical Reissue. It may be work $600-800 more than what I paid for it 15 mohs ago because Gibson chose to put a cheaper matte "vintage" finish on the new ones and the "regular" period corrct polished nitrocellulose laquer finish is now a $400 option. On the other hand, my Fender Custom Shop Nocaster Relic may be worht a couple of hundred less than I paid for it. Go figure.:rolleyes:
 
This thread has certainly gone off the rails. However, when the discussion has been about knives, it has been very educational.
 
Perhaps we should rename this one, the Exploding Knife Thread. ;)
Nothing like a few fireworks to light up the night sky!
 
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