Extreme Judgement : just some spec's and a little splitting

Took it out again today, again went into some knotty wood, one piece about 6" across, bad ring knots. The edge rippled during the primary split. It bent for about 1/2" in length and was dented back from the edge, up to 0.05" thick on the primary grind, ie. twice the edge height.

I stopped then as there is no point in continuing, the bend will just get worse faster as the bend concentrates the stress. It of course is still a useful knife, and its overall functionality isn't severely impaired, however with continued splitting the edge deformity would grow and then tear.

-Cliff
 
Is there any knife with similiar geometery that would not have rippled? If you are blowing out 3V, do you think there is a knife made that withstand that type of work?

Personally, I prefer something much simpler, like 5160, but thin ground steel pounded into knots is pretty much a recipe for failure with any steel.

If you wanna split knotty wood, you gotta use a hefty maul and wedges or a power splitter if you got one.

If all you have is a knife, look for clear wood.
 
Cliff
What sort of deformation(if any) would be noticeable if you did the same with your SHBM? What is the difference in edge geometry between the SHBM and the EJ? Which is a better steel?
 
hey jedi pimp i think the master of destruction Cliff here knows there are better tools for the job but he is interested in testing for overall design and durability :D so torture testing is what it's all about
 
Andrew Lynch said:
Sounds good...but don't you think splitting is a bit abusive :eek: ;)

Reason being is I want a knife that will do some chopping and splitting so I don't have to carry an axe/hatchet. My idea and many others are that it is safer to chop with a big blade than with a hatchet. The hatchet has a smaller head as to where a knife has seven or more inches so it is more than likely someone lacking in the skills department will end up with a messed up shin. Swing at a two inch sapling with the knife and the hatchet and see what I mean. So splitting to me is a real world test for a "survival knife".
 
bishop85gt said:
Reason being is I want a knife that will do some chopping and splitting so I don't have to carry an axe/hatchet. My idea and many others are that it is safer to chop with a big blade than with a hatchet. The hatchet has a smaller head as to where a knife has seven or more inches so it is more than likely someone lacking in the skills department will end up with a messed up shin. Swing at a two inch sapling with the knife and the hatchet and see what I mean. So splitting to me is a real world test for a "survival knife".

I understand what you mean and mostly I agree, but let's not discount skill. It may take some practice with a hatchet or small axe to make it less dangerous, but it may pay you back in chopping ability. If everyone had this perception, nobody would be swinging a hammer. Talk about a small amount of area striking a tiny target...
 
I'm all for the right tool for the job. I can swing an axe like nobodies business but I would rather not carry one out in the woods with me. Thats all. I would never discount skill. I was just saying that not everyone has it. Besides if my wife found out that you could use other things besides knives for stuff I would be in deep!!! LOL
 
bishop85gt said:
Reason being is I want a knife that will do some chopping and splitting so I don't have to carry an axe/hatchet. My idea and many others are that it is safer to chop with a big blade than with a hatchet. The hatchet has a smaller head as to where a knife has seven or more inches so it is more than likely someone lacking in the skills department will end up with a messed up shin. Swing at a two inch sapling with the knife and the hatchet and see what I mean. So splitting to me is a real world test for a "survival knife".

Bishop
Knowing Andrew, I'm sure he was being sarcastic. (note the wink)
 
See I'm always being left out of all the cool stuff like Playing with the new guys!! ;) And yeah I missed the wink. :footinmou
 
It is a good question, and probably the most critical one to ask is it the geometry or the steel. This knife is ground fairly thin at 0.025" behind the edge, easily enough for chopping and splitting clear wood, but buckled on knotty wood. I would mention though this still wasn't a survivial situation, I was in the back yard. In an actual survival situation the stress would be a lot higher and thus the impacts a lot harder.

The thing that stands out to me is that this is now the fourth time I have seen/heard described this problem with 3V. The first was on a custom from Ed Schott. Great toughness, but the tip bent far too easily given the cross section. Darrel Ralph also described problems with edge rippling in the past. Then I see a edge ripple, and talk to another maker who says they had the same problem, get it really tough it tends to ripple and get it harder and it tends to blow.

My SHBM has an edge which is custom modified, it has a dual bevel, primary edge is 8-10 degrees per side, secondary is 10-12. It can handle chopping knots no problem. I have not split heavy wood with it since I modified it as I was at that time testing to see how low I could go before chopping knots was a problem.

Note as an example of geometry, the Ontario Rtak with a slightly thinner edge than the Extreme Judgement, bent much faster on knots. Edge strength is NOT linear with thickness, even a small increase from 0.020" to 0.025" makes a significant strength difference with little loss in overall cutting ability. Know what you want the blade to do.

-Cliff
 
Not trying to be a pest, but I am not sure you really answered my question:
Is there any knife with similiar geometery that would not have rippled? If you are blowing out 3V, do you think there is a knife made that withstand that type of work?

What is the best knife made for splitting logs? Actually, what is the best production (say under $200) and custom (any price) for this task?

What are the attributes that make a knife a good splitter? I am gonna guess a thick spine and very tough steel. Soes the grind make a difference? A full flat grind has a more wedge like shape, but a saber grind has more full thickness steel to deal with side loading.

How important is edge geometery? If splitting is largely a function of brute force, it would not seem as important an attribute as it would in rope or meat slicing.

Do the attributes that make a knife a good splitter impair its functions as a general purpose cutting tool?

How does the efficiency of splitting with a knife compare to splitting with a small axe, such as a Forest axe?
 
Hi JP,
I don't think that you realize that your question has been answered:
SHBM= Busse Straight Handle Battle Mistress
If you do a search, you'll see that not only does this bad boy (girl?) chop knots, it chops car doors, concrete, nails, you name it. The search button is at the top of the page. Try Cliff Stamp+SHBM...
 
Eric Isaacson said:
Bishop
Knowing Andrew, I'm sure he was being sarcastic. (note the wink)

Thanks Eric :)

Yes, that was a little tongue in cheek...it was referencing the Recon Scout failure thread in the General forum.

I'm very interested to hear more about 3V and what you think of it Cliff. I've had the perception that it was quite amazing stuff, and while I'm certainly not condemning it the rippling effect is a bit worrying. If you do more work with the stuff I'd love to hear more of what you find.
 
jedi_pimp said:
Is there any knife with similiar geometery that would not have rippled?
That is a critical question. I have not used a knife ground that thin that didn't buckl. Even going from 0.025 - 0.030" would make a huge strength difference.

[What are the attributes that make a knife a good splitter?]

How important is edge geometery?
A thinner edge gets the knife in easier, thus requires less force. However a thicker profile will not wedge as much. Essentially with a knife you are not splitting as much as you are cutting the wood in two. Knives just don't have enough cross section to induce a split, outside of khukuris.

Do the attributes that make a knife a good splitter impair its functions as a general purpose cutting tool?
If you wanted to make it a pure splitter on its own yeah, as it would look like a splitting maul, but as a baton tool, no. Of course you need a thicker edge to split, more so if you want to be able to chisel cut knots like I was doing, and this costs you cutting ability. But then again there are very few knives of this size which are 0.025" at the edge.

How does the efficiency of splitting with a knife compare to splitting with a small axe, such as a Forest axe?
If the wood is small enough so that the axe can split it readily in a hit, then the axe beats it by a mile. On the wood I was splitting, it would be much faster with a knife because the axe would just jam. Even the GB maul I had could not split those rounds without reverse slamming and would ideally want a wedge.

Note in regards to the splitting, I don't actually split wood like that if I need it split for a functional purpose. I would not chisel cuts knots intentionally unless I had too. The above was a simulation of a survival / emergency situation, where things are not always done in ideal conditions, nor by ideal people.

If for example I had to loan my knife to my brother or one of his ape like friends, well then, they would not be overly concerned about grain, knots, etc., it is more like "smash wood, wood split, drink beer"

As well, I was using a piece of wood as a baton, I only used the axe initially for a shock test. In general its easier on the knife actually, becase the vibrations are hell on your hand. I can split with a wooden baton all day long, but try to hold a knife down against a hammer for an hour or two and your hand can be crippled.


Again, more of an emergency drill than an actual desired technique.

-Cliff
 
Thank you for the informative answers.

With all else being equal, will a hollow ground knife split wood as well as a flat ground one?

Is a 3/16" hollow ground blade on a 7" knife able to spilt wood well?
 
Good info from Cliff as always, although I dispute his contention that the Fehrman flicks better than the Sebenza. ;)

No, really, I have a First Strike (the 7 inch version) and overall I like it. In fact, I like it so much I gave it to my son for Christmas and ordered another one. As Cliff and others noted, I do not like the index finger subhilt area. However, I easily took care of that with my belt grinder, smoothing the hump down to the same level as the rest of the lower handle. This works much better for me.

As Cliff said, all knives with similar edges will ripple or chip out under similar stresses. I would be surprised if it did not. I would rather see a ripple than a chip, that's for sure.

Cliff, did you notice any damping effect from the rubber gaskets used inbetween the handle scales and the steel tang?
 
jedi_pimp said:
Thank you for the informative answers.

With all else being equal, will a hollow ground knife split wood as well as a flat ground one?

Is a 3/16" hollow ground blade on a 7" knife able to spilt wood well?

as cliff said with batonning your not actually splitting the wood. the act of splitting means that you are pushing a wide wedge into the cut in order to push the two have far enough apart that they break apart. the wedge is only in contact with the uper half of the log, and only enough to induce the break.


with batoning, the edge is in contact with the wood for the majority of it, cutting through rather then wedging apart. hence a cut rather then a split.

as to wether a hollow ground blade batons as easily as a flat ground, id have to go with cliffs answer (whatever it is)...
 
SethMurdoc said:
as cliff said with batonning your not actually splitting the wood. the act of splitting means that you are pushing a wide wedge into the cut in order to push the two have far enough apart that they break apart. the wedge is only in contact with the uper half of the log, and only enough to induce the break.


with batoning, the edge is in contact with the wood for the majority of it, cutting through rather then wedging apart. hence a cut rather then a split.
Could be either/or. That all depends on the consistency of the wood, and the geometry of the knife.

I think I'm going to get one of those Extreme Judgments before it's all over with :)
 
Can anyone recommend a production or semi-custom knife that is capable of taking the kind of abuse that Cliff was dishing out to this knife... you know the "pounding on the skull of a black bear trying to make a meal out of your ass" type abuse. Will a Busse Battle Mistress take it?

Thanks
 
Busse will take it no problem. Look into Ranger Knives RD9 as well. I have one of those that I have been abusing and it has held up fine.

Cerberus
 
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