Extreme Judgement : just some spec's and a little splitting

OwenM said:
Could be either/or. That all depends on the consistency of the wood, and the geometry of the knife
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If the wood is really clear and straight grained you can actually split it with a knife, cedar and apps split really easily, but in general, its more cutting than actual splitting.

As for hollows, not on a survival knife, if the edge goes so does the mani body of the knife. Great geometry for light stress cutters, really bad choice for heavy use knives.

-Cliff
 
Well, I'm disappointed... :(

I was sure 3V could withstand this kind of abuse...

What the heck do steel companies wait for to produce a steel that performs as well as INFI???

I just cannot believe that steel companies with **many metallurgists** cannot duplicate the performance of INFI!! I just cannot imagine they are not able!

Am I the only one who thinks that way?
 
Well, there are a few deductions that can be made:
#1: INFI may not have survived under identical conditions either, and so would be no better than 3V for that type of work. Until actual side by side tests are run, in a controled manner (think an impact version of the catra test) than we won't really know. IN the absence of real scientific lab work, than it would have to be the combnined reports from many users woth similiar results. How one knife faired, even with excellent quality control, is not really an inicator of how all the knives will perform. OF the reports I have read of Ferhmann knives indicate they will withstand extreme use, bordering on abuse. If that is true, either Cliff's work was over the line (which splitting knoty wood with an extreme use knife would not be IMHO) or this was a fluke. Would a micro-bevel have helped?

Ron Hood has used the Ferhmann knife in 3V, in fact it is likey that he used it much harder and much longer than Cliff did, and it came out with flying colors.

#2: Other companies could make a steel every bit as good, and makers could heat treat it just as well, but it would be very expensive and not worth it from a bottom line view.
 
Well, unless Ron Hood has chopped concrete, I don't think he has used his Ferhman much harder than Cliff has...

On the other hand, I thought more ''deeply'' ;) about the edge profile and I have to admit that 0.025'' in just a hair thicker than half a millimeter... this is quite thin... It is actually about the thickness of a stainless steel ruler...

I wonder how a well heat treated 5160 or L6 blade @ also 58-59HRC with the exact same geometry would have reacted to the heavy chopping/batonning test of Cliff...

Cliff, what do you think?
 
I have used my first Final Judgement for a couple of years (I think 3 years :D )I think the only folks who have used the Fehrman blades longer then me is my buddy Brian Jones and Ron Hood. Anyway I have never exp. any edge damage, and I have used it ALOT. From chopping dense bone, hard wood, prying, batoning, as a draw knife etc.

Ive probably chopped enough wood with that blade to build a nice cozy log cabin LOL.....Like I said I have NEVER had a single problem with the edges on my Fehrman blades, and there edges are pretty darn thin, which makes them cut better then any large fixed blade I own or have owned. I love the edges on Fehrman blades for that reason, as they have been great for cleaning out small and large game.(fish,rabbit, boar, coyote, deer, and elk)making very precise cuts with ease. Nothing worse then trying to clean out game with a blade with a overly thick edge....well except a dull one :D

Eric's heat treatment on his blades are amazing, I have done things to those blades that would make one think I lost my marbles,well I have lost a couple over the years but thats beside's the point lol.

Plus if I ever need a resharpen I will send it to Eric, after he sharpend my LC I was almost nervous about using that blade, it was that sharp. So sharp that I sliced off a chunk of flesh off my pinky finger and didnt know it until the wood I was working was turning a red LOL....

I have owned and used Busse's I own and use Fehrman's, you cant go wrong with either INFI or CPM3V.
If you have your mind set on a Fehrman and want a blade that has a little bit more beef in the edge you could ask Eric, he would probably do that for you.........
JMHO
 
Dalko said:
Well, unless Ron Hood has chopped concrete, I don't think he has used his Ferhman much harder than Cliff has...

On the other hand, I thought more ''deeply'' ;) about the edge profile and I have to admit that 0.025'' in just a hair thicker than half a millimeter... this is quite thin... It is actually about the thickness of a stainless steel ruler...

I wonder how a well heat treated 5160 or L6 blade @ also 58-59HRC with the exact same geometry would have reacted to the heavy chopping/batonning test of Cliff...

Cliff, what do you think?
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Did I miss something here? Did Cliff chop concrete in his test with the Fehrman?
 
No no, Cliff didn't chop concrete with the Ferhman. What I said was in answer to JP who said that Ron Hood had used his Ferhman HARDER than Cliff. I then answered that unless Ron had chopped concrete, I don't think he have been using his Ferhman harder than Cliff.

I'm sorry if I created confusion. :footinmou

I was kindda kidding in a certain manner because Cliff uses his knives REALLY hard and it is hard to use a knife harder than Cliff does...

BTW Featherstone, do you think a Busse with the same geometry would have failed about the same way? I ask you because you have experience with INFI.

Thanks a lot!
 
Hey Dalko,

Well its tough to say, I have chipped INFI on bone, not large blow out chips, but rather small ones that sharpend out with no problem, where is I havent had any chips with my Fehrman on the same kind of bone.
 
Hi Featherstone!

chipped an INFI edge! Not chipped 3V on the same type of bone!... Very interesting, even good to hear! (good to READ actually! :D )

So INFI is very tough, but not invincible! ;)

Thanks for the info!
 
Hey Dalko,

No nothing is invinsible, But INFI is damn tough stuff, as is CPM3V and from my exp you couldnt tell the toughness apart with regular wilderness work. I use these types of blades for wilderness/camping and when I hunt.

If you want to chop things like steel cable, or concrete and stuff of that nature, you will want a blade with a thicker edge, and there is nothing wrong with that at all, you just sacrafice cutting ability with strength........

So what it all boils down to is, what do you expect the knife to do.

Me, I want a blade that can build a blind, a shelter, split wood by batoning, and be a great slicer when cleaning game, hold a good edge and be comfortable to use over long periods of time, this is what I have found in my Fehrmans plus a bit more, Im just to tired/ lazy at this time to list all the things LOL :D
 
Interesting thread guys.I have owned a lot of steel and use a lot of steel,but have never owned a Fehrman.I have though used 3V extensively for 2 years now with zero problems.I have never seen any chipping and definately no rippling in the edge or any other edge deformations for that matter.To my understanding this is not typical of 3V to behave this way any way.I have heard that 3V will chip under xtreme high stresses before it will roll or ripple.The only blade I have ever had roll the edge or ripple was a SJ I carried for over a year and used hard.A razor sharp edge on my SJ seemed vulnerable and I could never keep it from rolling over and getting dull.3V on the other hand along with D2(which I find similar in edge performance)seem to just be better in the edge retention dept to me.As far as lateral stresses I have no direct comparisons in either of these steels as I have never needed to really flex my knives beyond the norms.
 
This is getting interesting. I have several Busses, and for the most part, their edges tend to roll under extreme use rather than chip out, but I have chipped out the edge on a Busse Steelheart - hit a nail with a glancing blow. I have also chipped out a Camp Tramp, but I accidently hit a rock to do it. Both chips sharpened out and the edges were as good as new. I have not used my Fehrmans all that hard yet, so I can't say for sure how they compare to the Busses. My experience with Busses overall though is that edge retention is nothing fantastic, but edge restoral is quick and fairly easy. I too think Dozier's D2 edges hold a bit longer. Busses mostly impress me with their all around capabilities, and of course the designs are among the best out there. I use a modified Battle Mistress for most of my cooking wood procurement, and it is a wonderful blade that takes the hard work and just keeps going. Although the jury is still out, I think the Fehrmans compare favorably with the Busse's. No I do not like the index finger subhilty thing on the Fehrmans, but then I do not really like the pronounced choils on most Busses. You got to take the good with bad though. If you want a custom knife to your exact specifications, buy a custom from someone like Bill Siegle. He'll do you an awesome blade in 5160. I hope he starts using CPM3V soon too.
 
Hello guys!

I keep reading this discussion and I'm now glad to read some good report about 3V. I'd begun to think that 3V sucks! No, not that bad... :p but it wasn't clear in my mind anymore that 3V was a good steel.

Of course, 5160 and L6 are very tough steel, but they have poor wear resistance and about no corrosion resistance at all where as 3V has great wear res. and somewhat good corrosion res.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but asides 3V (and INFI, but it's not available), there is no other steel that offer high toughness AND high wear resistance AND fairly good corrosion resistance, isn't there? :confused:
 
The 3V knives I have owned have not impressed me that much as far as the edge goes. I knew an old boy who was making blades out of the same steel at chipper knives and they were really good. I was going to have him make me on but he shot himself in the hand and had to quit making knives for a while.
 
I've been told that 3V MUST BE VERY WELL heat treated in order to perform the way it should.

Some steels like O1, 5160 and the 10XX series are quite forgiving during HT, but I heard many times that special care should be taken when heat treating the CPM grades and almost every high tech steels as well.

Jerry Busse takes really care of his INFI heat treatment, it is probably a large part of the INFI's performance.

Maybe the variability in 3V performance is only due to couple of °F during heat treatment... I don't know... :confused: This is maybe why a lot of knifemakers just swear by Paul Bos.
 
5160 does rust, but knife guys take care of their knives, and so that's not a real big deal. It is very tough, and it gets very sharp, but you are right it does not have the wear resistance of 3V or INFI. It all depends on what you want out of a knife, and how you intend to use it. Most of us don't buy knives for strictly survival purposes. We buy them because we like them, and because we have more mundane, everyday uses for them. For all intents and purposes, the way I use knives and the way I care for them, I won't see much difference between a 5160, 3V, S30V, A2, INFI, 1095, L6 or so on blade. I do notice that INFI is just better across the spectrum compared to other steels, but not better than the best in any specific category. I think Cliff's tests have demonstrated that some steels excell at certain tasks, but fall short in other areas. There is no "magic" steel, but some come closer to it than others in my book. For me these would include INFI, CPM3V, S30V, and BG-42 in the exotic steels, and D2, A2, 5160, and 52100 in the more common steels. D2 may even fall into the exotic category for being a high alloy steel. I think if you stick with the tougher steels for larger blades (INFI, 5160, A2, 3V, L6 ) and S30V, D2, Bg-42, 52100 for smaller blades and general purpose use you can't go wrong.
 
Well Steelhed, maybe this is just me, but I can fell a little anger in your reply. If so, I just want to say that I didn't want to raise any controversy and if I touched a sore spot, I apologize for this.

As you and everyone else have probably noticed, english is not my first language and it's very possible that I've not expressed myself properly which might have given the impression I was looking for trouble, but be sure I was not.

My point is just that if Jerry Busse (and his team) were able to create INFI, a steel that is very multi-functional because of its high toughness, high wear resistance all that combined with a fairly good corrosion resistance, I think there must be a steel company somewhere that is able to produce a steel that will perform the same way, or even better.

Until couple days ago, I thought 3V was THAT alternative, but reading this thread and discussing with Cliff by emails have lead me to consider that there may not be any available alternative to INFI yet.

Once again, if I touched a sore spot, I'm very sorry and apologize.
 
Dalko - Not at all am I angry. You ask good questions, especially why someone has not developed the equivalent of INFI, if INFI is so great. I don't know the answer to that question. I can hazard a guess and say the actual composition of INFI is not the reason. Everyone who wants to can find that composition as it's been posted here and other places. No, it's not just the composition, but the combination of design, marketing, heat treat and other proprietary "tweaks" made by Busse that brings the complete package together.

An analogy would be Dozier's D2. He has perfected the use of that steel to the point that no one I know of produces its equal. His heat treat is one reason, but he also has found the best geometry for D2 in his blades and does not stray too far into areas where D2 would not be among the best materials available for those particular designs.

Swamprat (a morph of Busse) has done something similiar with 52100. They do it better than anyone, mostly because of their heat treat process. Busse based designs don't hurt either.

I guess what I am saying is that there are probably steels out there like INFI, CPM3V, and D2 that have been optimized and rival these steels, but makers have not put together the synergistic elements needed to excell in the knife production arena. Something new always comes along, though. Fehrman knives are good, and CPM3V is good. Is it as good as INFI? I think if you have a Busse and a Fehrman and you were to use it normally, even extremely, the difference between the two would be neglible. At this point, I would give the edge to INFI. The jury is always ready to reconvene though.

Please don't think I took any offense to anything you wrote in this thread so far. :)
 
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