Fading popularity of traditional knives

[Will Power]

RR and CASE certainly are different to my mind. Both offer patterns that the other does not and RR is always really sharp out of the box and its stainless retains edge better than CASE's. RR is not pretending to be CASE, it doesn't need to. CASE has heritage and produces ranges of knives, Collabs etc that RR cannot aspire to. I like them both.

 

[gaj999]

Ohhhh man!!!! Saying that is gonna upset/anger/infuriate a lot of Case fans!
You're a braver man than I to say that outloud about Case vs Rough Rider.

LOL It's an internet forum. If you're not pissing someone off, you didn't actually say anything.

Off hand, the only RR vs Case (that I own) you can tell apart just by looking, is the carbon steel Canoes. The Rough Rider/Colt carbon steel Canoe's blades are roughly twice as thick as that on the Case ... the RR/Colt carbon steel blades have a titanium coating, and the covers are black G10. Oh, and the RR/Colt has pinched and ringed bolsters.

That's good info, thanks. I've looked at the RR carbon knives with an eye toward blade modification without much money on the line but never pulled the trigger. I hate thick blades, so it sounds like I'd be better off spending some of that money on a belt grinder first ...

 

[JohnDF]

I like that Rough Riders are cheap and therefore putting more traditional knives into people's pockets.
I like that a ton of stores still have Case brand knife displays, putting more traditional knives in people's pockets.
RR vs Case would be a non-issue if Case would step up their quality control. Until then, it's nice to have options

 

[afishhunter]

That's good info, thanks. I've looked at the RR carbon knives with an eye toward blade modification without much money on the line but never pulled the trigger. I hate thick blades, so it sounds like I'd be better off spending some of that money on a belt grinder first ...

I always felt the RR Carbon Steel canoe was a "heavy duty" canoe when compared to the CV Case canoe or the stainless steel RR canoes.

As best I can measure, the CV Case and stainless steel RR canoe's blades are 1/16 inch thick at the spine. The carbon steel RR is right at 1/8 inch at the spine.
My RR canoe is the earlier Colt brand. From what I was told by SMKW, when they lost the right to use the Colt name, the Colt carbon steel knives were moved over to Rough Rider, with no changes other than the tang stamp and the box.

A belt sander will probably be needed to take the Ti coating off. With about a year's worth of use, mine has not lost any of the coating on either blade, as far as I can tell.
The coating dosn't look bad, by the way. It's very similar to an even gray patina.

Back on subject ...
To the OP:
I've been thinking about it.
I'm not so sure that Traditionals are falling from favor out in the "real" world.
For one thing, very few if any have a pocket clip. Therefore, you don't know if someone has one in their pocket.
Most Traditionals don't "print" in your pocket, even when wearing a suit, with or without the knife in a slip. This is especially true for single spring one or two blade knives.
Heck, even my two spring 4.25 inch closed RR Sunfish does not print in my pants pocket on the rare occasions I wear a suit.

The Buck 110 and 112 seem just as popular as ever. I know the local Walmart sells out of the Buck 110, 371 and 373 stockman, and 389 canoe, before they do the name brand (Ontario, Spiderco, Kershaw, SOG) modern folders they carry.
Admittedly, that may be partly be due to cost.

 

[Chief]

My two cents … traditional knife popularity is increasing but age related. 17 years ago I was a Microtech "Certified Dealer", am still a moderator on Microholics. Haven't bought a new one in years, they no longer interest me. Heard a statistic on the news the other day that 10,000 people turn 65 years old every day in the USA. As humans get older we look for things that turn back the hands of time, items that remind us of our youth. Growing up before tactical knives, our dads, granddads and other relatives carried slipjoints. Growing up with his father carrying a Microtech, my grandson will look at things differently. When he is my age and looks back trying to recapture his youth, Microtech knives will more than likely fill that niche. He sees grandpa using a slipjoint, am hoping he will remember those fondly too.

 

[B.F.U]

Im seeing a lot of talk about modern stainless steels being superior, and how makers should use that instead of carbon steel. I see your point guys, but on the other hand...
Supers steels are a pain in the neck! If you actually use a knife, you WILL dull it. Its just a matter of time. With 1095, you can get back a razor edge in 5 minutes. You can use a rock, a mug bottom, the edge of your car window, you can even get a decent stropping on the leg of your jeans. With a modern steel, you just have to make do with a dull knife (which is dangerous) until you can get back to your expensive high tech sharpening system. That sucks.
Not everyone wants to buy a worksharp either. I dont. I use stones, just like my dad taught me. I use a diamond stone on my harder stainless steels.
Plus, some of us like the well used look of patina'ed carbon steel. Just saying, it looks pretty cool. Lol

In my experience 1095 is not easier to keep sharp than typical modern stainless steel (vg10, s30v, cpm 154, etc.) and you don't need a worksharp. You can get really good diamond stones for $30 or usable ones for $10

Are we sure ?

Yeah, that's a movie. Plus the guy with the knife swings it around (like a lot of silly self defense styles people still practice) to show off and Indy just draws and shoots. It's just supposed to be comedic, because Harrison Ford was sick that day of filming and didn't want to do a lengthy fight scene. Plus, movies far overpower handguns. They do laceration damage only, no concussive damage like rifle rounds, so that quick a death is unrealistic most of the time.

GEC's 1095 is heat treated and cryo tempered by Peters HT to 58-59 HRc
Case's CV is is a modified 1085, .86 carbon, heat treated to 55 HRc
There's a difference

I don't have much experience with Case CV but if there is that much of a difference in the heat treat that is what would make a significant difference in user experience (on top of the lower carbon if it is 1085).

What Chinese one hand open imports does Case sell? Did you mean Schrade?

Now I don't know if this is true, but it seems plausible in my experience. This is why I don't buy the "the older steel is better" argument. GEC uses good 1095 and has it heat treated by Peter's, the best in the business, to the generally agreed upon best hardness for general use.

BUT modern stainless can get harder, has carbides, is more alloyed for better grain structure, etc. There's no argument that 1095 is the better steel for knives. Modern stainless is not that difficult to sharpen.

I have certainly found Case's stainless to seem softer than Rough Riders stainless in sharpening.

How do ANY of GEC's knives resemble modern folders? This statement requires further explanation I think.

I don't think it is a fair comparison. In General they do go a bit intense with it, but a clone is when the design is THE SAME and/or with stolen trademarks. Neither are the case (no pun intended) with Rough Rider and Case.

Sounds like an interesting event but I'm not sure if I'd take that as a reality unless I saw it happen myself.

There's no way that Spyderco stat is correct.

Logan, one man's opinion that I respectfully disagree with. But I have an open mind so please expand on your statement.

Well I didn't mean to be brash or upset anyone. It's fine to like whatever steel you like, there's nothing wrong with liking 1095. and @Sabercat is correct, I was referring to 1095 vs 1085 I believe.

Yes, I find that statement puzzling to say the least.

But I'll take it a step further, double down so to say, and say "There's no valid argument that 1095 is the best steel for a pocket knife".

Now, again, that's not to say that it's a fine steel and if you like a patina and don't care about corrosion resistance and don't care about high edge retention and value a fine carbideless edge that it might be a great steel for you.

But let's consider what is generally the properties that make for a good pocket knife steel:

Edge holding:

1095 has no or almost no carbides. Therefore it takes a fine edge, but will not hold it as long as other more alloyed steels at the same hardness that do have carbides. There are also other carbon / non stainless steels that are as easy to sharpen at the same hardness with better edge holding.

Ease of maintenance:

Maintenance includes a couple things.

First, sharpenability. Depending on the hardness 1095 is easy to sharpen, true. But I think that with cheap and easy to get tools, including normal stones, it is not difficult to keep a more alloyed steel sharp. I think it's a net gain for me with a more modern steel over 1095.

Second, corrosion resistance. 1095 corrodes extremely easily. It can easily become a problem for the mechanical working of the knife or for the edge. Lots of other steels are much less likely to corrode without trading off the other upsides of 1095. For me, stainless is a net gain.

Durability:

Durability is less of a concern in a pocket knife but even so 1095 is not significantly tougher than lots of steels that outperform it in all the above areas, except possibly equaling it in sharpenability.

I'll let Logan officially clarify this, but in the context of the post he was replying to, I took this as 1095 being superior to 1086. He provided the merits of modern stainless within the entire original post .

I could definitely be wrong though.

All this said, I like 1095. It's a simple steel that has worked for years, works now, and will continue to work in the future. I have FAR more knives in 1095 than other steels combined. I use 1095 more than any other steel. It's just not the best steel, plain and simple.

It's easy to machine and most enthusiasts either don't care or have an emotional connection to it.

Again, not trying to ruffle feathers. Just my opinion.

 

[Gafishing]

I recently sold most of my modern folders and have started to buy more and more traditionals. Don't know if it's that I'm getting older (37). But I only carry a modern folder for work (plumber) since I need a quick one handed opening blade for the job. But as soon as I'm out of my Plumbing uniform, it's a traditional in my pocket. I also realized that I am no tactical operator that needs the latest and greatest. Self defense is my trusty firearm (state of GA). So I know this is just me but I believe there is a current demand for traditionals.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Bugdoc]

In my experience 1095 is not easier to keep sharp than typical modern stainless steel (vg10, s30v, cpm 154, etc.) and you don't need a worksharp. You can get really good diamond stones for $30 or usable ones for $10



Yeah, that's a movie. Plus the guy with the knife swings it around (like a lot of silly self defense styles people still practice) to show off and Indy just draws and shoots. It's just supposed to be comedic, because Harrison Ford was sick that day of filming and didn't want to do a lengthy fight scene. Plus, movies far overpower handguns. They do laceration damage only, no concussive damage like rifle rounds, so that quick a death is unrealistic most of the time.




I don't have much experience with Case CV but if there is that much of a difference in the heat treat that is what would make a significant difference in user experience (on top of the lower carbon if it is 1085).





Well I didn't mean to be brash or upset anyone. It's fine to like whatever steel you like, there's nothing wrong with liking 1095. and @Sabercat is correct, I was referring to 1095 vs 1085 I believe.



But I'll take it a step further, double down so to say, and say "There's no valid argument that 1095 is the best steel for a pocket knife".

Now, again, that's not to say that it's a fine steel and if you like a patina and don't care about corrosion resistance and don't care about high edge retention and value a fine carbideless edge that it might be a great steel for you.

But let's consider what is generally the properties that make for a good pocket knife steel:

Edge holding:

1095 has no or almost no carbides. Therefore it takes a fine edge, but will not hold it as long as other more alloyed steels at the same hardness that do have carbides. There are also other carbon / non stainless steels that are as easy to sharpen at the same hardness with better edge holding.

Ease of maintenance:

Maintenance includes a couple things.

First, sharpenability. Depending on the hardness 1095 is easy to sharpen, true. But I think that with cheap and easy to get tools, including normal stones, it is not difficult to keep a more alloyed steel sharp. I think it's a net gain for me with a more modern steel over 1095.

Second, corrosion resistance. 1095 corrodes extremely easily. It can easily become a problem for the mechanical working of the knife or for the edge. Lots of other steels are much less likely to corrode without trading off the other upsides of 1095. For me, stainless is a net gain.

Durability:

Durability is less of a concern in a pocket knife but even so 1095 is not significantly tougher than lots of steels that outperform it in all the above areas, except possibly equaling it in sharpenability.



All this said, I like 1095. It's a simple steel that has worked for years, works now, and will continue to work in the future. I have FAR more knives in 1095 than other steels combined. I use 1095 more than any other steel. It's just not the best steel, plain and simple.

It's easy to machine and most enthusiasts either don't care or have an emotional connection to it.

Again, not trying to ruffle feathers. Just my opinion.

Logan, good summary. I misunderstood your statement that I quoted. I agree with you 100%.

 

[JohnDF]

1095 carbon steel reminds me of that favorite wood or leather chair. The more it ages, the more beautiful it gets. It has that well-loved and broken-in feeling to it. Even though it is showing it's age, you like it even more and you wouldn't get rid of it for something new and shiney. It's your favorite and nobody else is allowed to sit in it.

Of course you can get fancier, more expensive chairs, with new space-age materials that will look new forever, but they aren't going to age as gracefully as the wood or the leather. They just aren't going to hold that same sentimental value.

Things that don't last forever seem to take on more value.

 

[jmarston]

Moderns steels outperform 1095 in most every way. Less rust, tougher, more wear resistant, etc.

There is certainly an emotional bond with the old ways though. As others have stated, an old leather billfold, an aged shotgun and a fine whiskey all have their attraction. A new nylon belt or wallet is lighter, won't rot, stronger, etc but I don't find myself buying those either.

There is an aesthetic in well aged.

 

[Stropping Young Lad]

I’m really enjoying this thread, and I think traditionals are seeing a resurgence with (gasp) the millennial generation. There’s a large swath of younger people looking to connect to their heritage, and great grandfather’s simplicity. Granted, they’ll then post pictures of their simple knives on social media, but the sentiment is appealing. It falls in like with vinyl records and Polaroid cameras in vintage or retro chic.

Not to mention, the millennial generation is more likely to spend money on luxury items. Let’s face it, any more than one knife is really a luxury, and when GEC sells whole runs out almost instantly at over $100/pop, the customer isn’t buying something they “need”.

For me, I carry mostly traditionals. There are occasions where I’ll opt for something corrosion resistant (NJ had 99% humidity a couple days ago) or that offers one-hand opening. But I like to collect, and by the time I find a modern knife I like, I’m around $400...

 

[Will Power]

Logan, good summary. I misunderstood your statement that I quoted. I agree with you 100%.

I agree, but the wording of his assertion made for ambiguity. All clear now

 

[Eric J]

Victorinox seems to be selling plenty of knives these days. I still buy one on occasion and use them everyday. Traditional knives will always be around and people will not always want the latest greatest when the old tried and true will do.

 

[emjay]

Wow. Took me a few days to get through all 17 pages of this thread, inbetween work and life. Are traditional knives fading in popularity? In my opinion yes, but not because they aren't liked, but firstly rather (as has been mentioned) because there are more options these days. Like cars, we have many more makes to choose from these days compared to 50 years ago.

Secondly the other reality is that modern knives offer convenience. One hand opening, rust and rot resistance. I appreciate traditional knives and carry carbon steel at times, but it can be a pain in the backside sometimes dealing with the maintenance when I know I don't really have to deal with it thanks to modern materials. Your grandad didn't have that option and simply lived with the maintenance. These days, why struggle when you don't have to? Opening a knife with two hands at times is inconvenient and quite frankly dangerous if you are using the other hand to support yourself on a ladder or something, or your hands are slippery and you lose your grip and have your finger land on the edge as it's being opened. Some people may even think modern knives look cool.

Thirdly, we have to also remember that these days, few people carry knives, plainly because we live in a time where you can get by without one, as well as the negative view on knives in this era. I get some funny looks even when I pull out my 84mm, single layer SAK to cut open a package.

I think those are the main reasons why traditional knives may be falling in popularity. Just my opinion

 

[Bigbobg]

It's a generational thing.

 

[Hickory n steel]

It's a generational thing.

I don't think that's necessarily the case, I think it depends on what your first knife is / was.

I grew up in the modern knife world, as a teenager my friends and I all carried cheap one handed openers and as a little kid most people I knew to carry a knife in their pocket carried something modern my dad included.
By all accounts I should be 100% for modern folders, but I'm not.

My first two knives were a dollar store SAK knockoff at age 7 then later a schrade 34OT, but once I discovered modern folders that was it and I was all about carrying these fast action modern folders.
With all my exposure and love for modern folders the two
knives I wanted most happened to be a Buck 110 and a Case sodbuster, getting these two knives at age 18-19 initiated my gradual realization that modern folders no longer appealed to me.

I say if you start a kid out with a traditional knife they may stray but they'll eventually find their way back.

 

[CVamberbonehead]

Wow! This thread is still going, this is awesome!

 

[afishhunter]

Like cars, we have many more makes to choose from these days compared to 50 years ago.

Fifty years ago you had AMC, Plymouth, Mercury, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Saab, MG, Triumph, and many more to choose from, including the brands available today.
Sixty to Seventy years ago you can add Studebaker, Avanti, Packard, Rambler, Hudson, Simca, Datsun, DeSoto, Willy's Overland, Sunbeam, (Maxwell Smart in the TV show 'Get SMART' drove a Sunbeam Tiger) and pobably a dozen more to the list ...
In short, we have far fewer makes of vehicles today than we did back then to choose from.

Same for cutlery. A lot of US and European cutlers have closed shop. We've lost more cutlers than we've gained, even taking into consideration those that "live on" in name only.
(For example the various Schrade brands that are now made in Asia.)

 

[CVamberbonehead]

Fifty years ago you had AMC, Plymouth, Mercury, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Saab, MG, Triumph, and many more to choose from, including the brands available today.
Sixty to Seventy years ago you can add Studebaker, Avanti, Packard, Rambler, Hudson, Simca, Datsun, DeSoto, Willy's Overland, Sunbeam, (Maxwell Smart in the TV show 'Get SMART' drove a Sunbeam Tiger) and pobably a dozen more to the list ...
In short, we have far fewer makes of vehicles today than we did back then to choose from.

Same for cutlery. A lot of US and European cutlers have closed shop. We've lost more cutlers than we've gained, even taking into consideration those that "live on" in name only.
(For example the various Schrade brands that are now made in Asia.)

Good analogy, and like cars, they just dont make them like they used to!

 

[gaj999]

Good analogy, and like cars, they just dont make them like they used to!

Of course, when it comes to cars, that's a good thing!