Fading popularity of traditional knives

[JohnDF]

I just wanted to advise you guys to track down and listen to episode 5 of the Guys Talk Knives podcast. It's entitled "Are traditional pocketknives going away?" Quite an enjoyable chat.

Just watched it. They didn't seem to have much passion or knowledge about the subject. Seemed more like a sales spot for their sponsor.

 

[Sacto]

I don’t think the video in the OP is a good indication of what the general public carries. The employees get a discount so for the most part, they are going to carry what the store sells. I’m not sure what brands they sell, but if the store sells mostly moderns, odds are, the employees will carry mostly moderns. Also, it’s a marketing video. If there’s a guy there carrying a vintage Schrade that you can’t buy any more, it doesn’t do much good to profile him. Or worse yet if someone is carrying a newer traditional that they don’t sell, it could direct you to another dealer’s site. So they probably won’t profile that guy either. Sorry if this point has been made already, I can’t remember the whole thread.

 

[Horsewright]

Now your pressuring me!!! LOL!

 

[mnblade]

Just watched it. They didn't seem to have much passion or knowledge about the subject. Seemed more like a sales spot for their sponsor.

The interesting/relevant part, to me, was when one of the hosts said the he's heard for 20 years that traditional slipjoint pocketknives are going away, yet that hasn't happened. Also, when he says that at the knife shop where he works (located in the Smoky Mountains) Case remains their best seller, by a long shot.

-- Mark

 

[JohnDF]

The interesting/relevant part, to me, was when one of the hosts said the he's heard for 20 years that traditional slipjoint pocketknives are going away, yet that hasn't happened. Also, when he says that at the knife shop where he works (located in the Smoky Mountains) Case remains their best seller, by a long shot.

-- Mark

You make a good point, they did say that.

 

[FarmKid]

The interesting/relevant part, to me, was when one of the hosts said the he's heard for 20 years that traditional slipjoint pocketknives are going away, yet that hasn't happened. Also, when he says that at the knife shop where he works (located in the Smoky Mountains) Case remains their best seller, by a long shot.

-- Mark

This can go back to the regional argument. I live about an hour and half northeast of the smokies. I have spent a fair amount of time at the blue roofed money pit and a lot of customers are local guys. Case is king around here. Especially since Schrade has went under. Most tourist that come into the smokies want to play hillbilly for the week. That’s why the overalls, boots, distillery’s, food, and possibly knives fall into that category.

 

[B.F.U]

I wrote off case about 40 years ago because of their steel but I was looking at their site earlier and found a few new to me offerings. Some Chinese OHO imports with unnamed 440 and AUS-8. As usual no mention of heat treat. Sad. I would like to see Case succeed but I don't believe that is the way to go.
They kind of reminded me of Old Timer when they tried to appeal to the modern market, back around 2000.
I hope the mods leave the pic for the sake of discussion, if not I'll apologize in advance and remove them.
OT 53OTG and 47OT

What Chinese one hand open imports does Case sell? Did you mean Schrade?

I did not realize when I posted that information it would cause an issue.
According to Crucible it is a modified 1086 or 1086cv. It appears that once upon a time Case used 1095 and ran it extremely soft. Then around 2000 they used a lower grade steel (1086) and hardened it more but still very soft. From the posts I seen on sharpening CV there seems to be a consensus to not apply to much pressure or you'll roll the bevel.
If you like CV then it's good steel.

"Case CV(Crucible) - As some other proprietary names, Case Chrome Vanadium(or Case CV) is just the name for any given alloy used currently in Case knives. Similar story with Cold Steel Carbon V. Unfortunately, they don't exactly announce when the steel changes. Until late 90s, or perhaps even mid 2000 Case CV was based on AISI 1095 carbon steel, and later on, it has been changed to AISI 1086 steel, with trace amounts of Vanadium and Chromium. According to knifemaker Don Hanson III's tests it's 0.50% Chromium and ~0.20% Vanadium. Not nearly enough to affect wear resistance or rust resistance, but will help with grain refinement. Overall, those two alloys (1086 and 1095) are quite close and heat treatment of the steel is much more important than the difference in composition. Older Case knives were about 5-10 RC points softer compared to current line, which isn't hard by any standards either - 55HRC or so."

Now I don't know if this is true, but it seems plausible in my experience. This is why I don't buy the "the older steel is better" argument. GEC uses good 1095 and has it heat treated by Peter's, the best in the business, to the generally agreed upon best hardness for general use.

BUT modern stainless can get harder, has carbides, is more alloyed for better grain structure, etc. There's no argument that 1095 is the better steel for knives. Modern stainless is not that difficult to sharpen.

The info on Case's own forum (from 2 or 3 posts by their historian, dated between 2005 - 2013) is pretty clear, especially when coming from their own staff. It doesn't support what other assumptions claim, about it being 1086, or about it being that soft.

The notion that CV is 'soft' (i.e., bevel rolling if applying slightly heavier pressure) is vague at best. Having used & sharpened it myself, it behaves very similarly to Schrade's 1095 (in their older USA blades), in how it takes a keen edge and holds it; these are two of the easiest-responding steels I've seen, to sharpening to a keen edge. CV doesn't 'roll' nearly that easily, in sharpening or in normal uses. Burrs are minimal in sharpening and easy to clean up, another strong sign it's not too 'soft'. I've noticed on new blades fresh from the factory, there could be an issue with some heat-damaged, weakened steel near the apex, which clears up with a couple or three resharpenings, when that steel is removed. I've also noticed the same with Case's Tru-Sharp blades, which become more stable in edge-holding after some resharpening.

It may be that Case's CV/carbon blades from earlier eras might've been different. I have an old 1965-vintage folding hunter from them in carbon steel that seems softer (easier grinding) on the stones, but still holds an edge quite well in use. I'd expect some evolution or improvement in specs over the span of time Case has been in business. But there's nothing vague about what they'd specified for it, in the post-2000 era, on their own forum. One has to be a member in their Collector's Club to access their forum site (I am), but it's there for the finding, if one's willing to sign up and pay for the membership.

I have certainly found Case's stainless to seem softer than Rough Riders stainless in sharpening.

I can remember 15 years ago when there was a big stir when Queen came out with their 1095 line. I have several of them. Turned out to be the forerunners of Great Eastern. We were begging for the old steel then.... Sigh.

I love 1095 myself. Same for 440C. I have D2 and it is decent. Prefer 440C over it. Over anything really.

One thing I think needs mentioned. Does anyone think it is mere coincidence that GEC has run after run after run of 1 (sometimes 2 blade) "trappers" that resemble modern folders?

I have no interest in them... Have no problem that no one cares if I do.

Will

How do ANY of GEC's knives resemble modern folders? This statement requires further explanation I think.

There is something I don't understand about this sub forum. Post a Chinese clone in the General forum and you'll be tared and feathered, then run out on a rail. Yet the traditional forum with all it's talk of tradition, has a thread dedicated to Chinese Case clones. RR is directly cloning Case and targeting Case's customer base. Even going so far as to make a Vietnam Veteran's Commemorative.

I wonder what this forums members will say if or when, Case closes it's doors and becomes another
Chinese name. It wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened.

Case has sat on their collective smurfs for the last 60 years with the only change being dropping a few patterns and adding colors. I make no secret of the fact I'm not a Case fan but I want to see them succeed. Unlike GEC, Case has the tooling to work different steels. If they're using 1095 post the specs and bring out AUS-8 so the stainless is as good as the carbon steel. Heat treat those steels to hold an edge. They need to follow GEC's example and bring out some new interesting patterns.

Like gaj999 said it ain't 1967 anymore Case can not survive building 1967 products in 2018. Anymore than Ford or Chevy could survive building 1967 models in 2018.

I don't think it is a fair comparison. In General they do go a bit intense with it, but a clone is when the design is THE SAME and/or with stolen trademarks. Neither are the case (no pun intended) with Rough Rider and Case.

gaj999, It would have taken some real effort to find that post. As I recall Hickory & Steel didn't agree with me one bit. That's okay. I'm comfortable with my opinion and my experience tells me that you hit the nail on the head.

Added: The Rough Rider (RR) dealer/manufacturer has "manufacturer's days" weekend in October every year and the various manufacturers send reps to their store like a knife show. It really is sort of a great event. The folks there told me that a Case rep visited the Rough Rider display and handled a bunch of knives and was simply amazed that the Chinese could produce such a quality slip joint that easily rivaled Case's stuff for such a low retail price. That rep, I'm told bought something like a dozen RR's to take with him.

Sounds like an interesting event but I'm not sure if I'd take that as a reality unless I saw it happen myself.

Mods, I hope this is okay, just for comparison to compare knife companies' profits. I have no idea how accurate it is but if accurate is interesting. If accurate, It would show how more traditional companies rank among more modern knife companies.........and trads look to be more than holding their own. From Manta.
Case:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 86792791 and employs a staff of approximately 365.
Buck:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 63631917 and employs a staff of approximately 245.
Benchmade:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 41161537 and employs a staff of approximately 140.
Spyderco:
Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of less than $500,000 and employs a staff of approximately

There's no way that Spyderco stat is correct.

 

[afishhunter]

I'm 40 years old ... anyone in my age group or younger that’s not into knives may not know what carbon steel is ...

I think there are a lot of people out there that just buy a knife to use and don’t pay any attention to steel.

Perhaps retailers are catering to that with less carbon steel and more stainless just to avoid problems/disappointment.

A lot of people above your age group don't know what carbon steel is either ... or they may have forgotten. Even back in the 1930's and 1940's stainless steel knives were not uncommon.

My guess is 99.8% of knife buyers don't pay any attention to the blade steel.
I would also hazard a guess that 99.999% of them would not know the difference between one steel and the next.

Heck, I'm a "knife knut" and I sure don't know (or care) what the differences between all the "super steels" are.
I only know the "obsolete" traditional steels in the 10xx carbon steel family, and 440A, 440C, 420HC, and yes, even 420J2 stainless steels, still cut everything I need my knife to cut ... and I don't need any expensive diamond stones to sharpen them.

The retailers and manufacturers are catering to what sells.
Most people for some reason want their knives to look shiny and new, so stainless outsells carbon steel.
Personally, I never could understand the desire for smudge and fingerprint magnets, but to each their own.

I prefer carbon steel with a nice patina.
However, most of my knives are stainless, simply because that is only what they are available in.
Any mirror polished stainless blades do get introduced to some 320 or 400 grit wet or dry sandpaper, though. Like I said, I am not fond of fingerprint and smudge magnets.

 

[sXePhenomenal]

Traditional folders fill a great niche to me at least they’re relatively less expensive than the $400+ modern tacticals and such I like. $50-$120 for a high quality knife to supplement my wanting to buy new knives but not have $300 extra to spend every couple weeks.

Wanted to point out about Cases steel and HT they’re top end knives the Bose line are deep cryo heattreated and the Damascus I’m pretty sure is a Devin Thomas carbon variant so it’s really good.

 

[afishhunter]

There is something I don't understand about this sub forum. Post a Chinese clone in the General forum and you'll be tared and feathered, then run out on a rail. Yet the traditional forum with all it's talk of tradition, has a thread dedicated to Chinese Case clones. RR is directly cloning Case and targeting Case's customer base.

No, Rough Rider is making some of the same patterns as Case. Just as Böker, GEC, Queen, CSC, Schrade Old Timer and Uncle Henry (in both the made in USA era, and now Offshore), Frost, Colt, and several other companies are.
Also, Rough Rider makes and sells traditional patterns that Case does not. For example, the Barlow and Sunfish patterns, among others. How can Rough Rider be "cloning" Case when they produce knives Case doesn't?

I don't believe Rough Rider is targeting Case's customer base.
Case still sells a lot of knives. Over the last 20 plus years, perhaps a majority may have been to the "collector" market, but be that as it may, the two companies do not market to the same consumer.
Case is a relatively inexpensive "high end" brand.
Rough Rider is an inexpensive "lower" or "mid range" brand.
Remember, cost is relative to income. For some, $1,500 is "inexpensive" and a "reasonable" amount to spend for a knife. For others, $100 is a "reasonable" amont to spend.
For still others, $40 is still too much.
An everyday Case stockman, trapper, or canoe pattern costs in excess of $50 ~ $60.
A Rough Rider of the same pattern costs less than $15.
There are a large number of people who want a Traditional knife, and cannot afford a Case knife. I am one of them. For me, $30 is a LOT to spend on a knife.
Truth to tell, I only have only bought four knives that cost over $30. All but one, a Buck. My most expensive knife was $69.
Yes, I ate more Ramin Noodle the month I bought it.
The only knife I have that cost over $30 that is not a Buck is an Ontario Rat 1 (Aus8 blade), which is also my only modern knife.

Case may have a "better" name than Rough Rider, but my Rough Rider's will cut just as well, and last just as long.
The Case costs 4x or 5x more than a Rough Rider, yet the Case is not (to me) 4x or 5x "better".

Lastly, you are mistaken.
Rough Rider is an American brand, not a Chinese brand.
Rough Rider is owned by SMKW, an American conpany. Yes, the knives are made in China. So what? The knives are made to the specifications SMKW wants, at the price point they want.
They are not the only ones to source their knives offshore, either.
Cold Steel, for example, is considered an "American" brand, yet Cold Steel does not manufacture any knives in house. For that matter CS does not source any knives from the USA, with the possible exception of their 3 blade stockman.
Most, if not all, Cold Steel knives are made in Asia, South Africa, and South America, depending on which knife or machete it is. Again, so what? They are made to the specifications Cold Steel wants, and at the price point they want, regardless of what country the knife was made in.

How is SMKW/Rough Rider sourcing their product offshore any different from Cold Steel doing the same thing?

 

[not2sharp]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that traditional knives are fading in popularity, but there are many more choices available today and the market is broader than it has ever been.

n2s

 

[Jason_W]

I collect different types of knives, but traditionals have a certain "soul" that you don't feel with titanium flippers and the likes.

 

[Dean51]

What Chinese one hand open imports does Case sell? Did you mean Schrade?

Nope, I mean Case.
The Case tecX line.

 

[Bugdoc]

There's no argument that 1095 is the better steel for knives

Logan, one man's opinion that I respectfully disagree with. But I have an open mind so please expand on your statement.

 

[Will Power]

Yes, I find that statement puzzling to say the least.

 

[gaj999]

I don't believe Rough Rider is targeting Case's customer base.

I'm not buying this. They sell nearly identical knives of identical quality. Take off the markings and I defy you to tell them apart. I see them both as going after the customers looking for a cheap knife that isn't a POS. I think of them as low end knives since they're both at the minimum quality level that I'll accept, but if we say that POS=low end, then I could accept them as midrange, just for talking about. That would make GEC, Lionsteel, Viper, Boker, and some Bucks as high end and customs, well, as something else even higher. Double secret high end, maybe.

 

[Sabercat]

Logan, one man's opinion that I respectfully disagree with. But I have an open mind so please expand on your statement.

I'll let Logan officially clarify this, but in the context of the post he was replying to, I took this as 1095 being superior to 1086. He provided the merits of modern stainless within the entire original post .

I could definitely be wrong though.

 

[Earl1]

I've carried a traditional knife since I was 5 years old. Now at almost 42 I've been using some modern folders due to issues with hands temblimg. That is getting better so I will soon once again brcarrying a traditional probably along with a modern. I color red knives for years and just recently sold all of my knives except the ones that were gifts from family and friends. I have the spyderco native 5 I carry left. But as soon as I am able there will be a case yellow handle stockman in my pocket. I've carried one of those for over 20 years so someone will sell one to me soon I hope.
The modern vs traditional debate will continue long into the future. They both have advantages over each other. The bigger more modern folders with a long blade cab easily cut through watermelon cantaloupe etc.
A traditional is great for opening a package. For digging out a splinter from a finger. A traditional is easier to conceal no doubt about it.
I think they will both survive. And as to which one should you or I carry, why not one of each so there is no favoritism shown lol

 

[Bugdoc]

I'll let Logan officially clarify this, but in the context of the post he was replying to, I took this as 1095 being superior to 1086. He provided the merits of modern stainless within the entire original post .

I could definitely be wrong though.

I see your point, which makes sense.

 

[afishhunter]

afishhunter said: ↑

I don't believe Rough Rider is targeting Case's customer base.
******
gaj999
" I'm not buying this. They sell nearly identical knives of identical quality. Take off the markings and I defy you to tell them apart. I see them both as going after the customers looking for a cheap knife that isn't a POS. I think of them as low end knives since they're both at the minimum quality level that I'll accept, but if we say that POS=low end, then I could accept them as midrange, just for talking about. That would make GEC, Lionsteel, Viper, Boker, and some Bucks as high end and customs, well, as something else even higher. Double secret high end, maybe. "
******

Ohhhh man!!!! Saying that is gonna upset/anger/infuriate a lot of Case fans!
You're a braver man than I to say that outloud about Case vs Rough Rider.

I have a few Case knives, all we're gifted to me, and I have more Rough Riders.
To be honest, I have to agree for the most part with your assessment.
Off hand, the only RR vs Case (that I own) you can tell apart just by looking, is the carbon steel Canoes. The Rough Rider/Colt carbon steel Canoe's blades are roughly twice as thick as that on the Case ... the RR/Colt carbon steel blades have a titanium coating, and the covers are black G10. Oh, and the RR/Colt has pinched and ringed bolsters.