Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[Sirryacus]

Nobody needs to "help" you do anything, you're doing a wonderful job all on your own...

You should stay away from this thread, you're coming unglued.

Zero facts and baseless opinions?

Maybe try sticking to the topic and when someone comes along and dares to disagree, present a good counter-argument, or, live with it and move on.

The responses you are getting stem from the responses you are giving.

Just admit that there are certain people on this forum that if you are unlucky enough to targeted by and you defend yourself against you are basically gonna be banned if you aren't a gold member.

 

[sabre cat]

Took a couple minutes scrolling through on my phone. That was some hard work right there and i expect to be compensated.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Clone-Copy-Idea-user?p=16548355#post16548355

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Clone-Copy-Idea-user?p=16549914#post16549914

The first one listed here is for a trademark so it does not apply to the Axis lock itself. Not the same as a patent to have something in production.

I did come across something of interest from the US Patent office website. This info was found after I went to Google and ask about the difference between a trademark and a patent:



"A patent is a limited duration property right relating to an invention, granted by the United States Patent and Trademark Office in exchange for public disclosure of the invention. Patentable materials include machines, manufactured articles, industrial processes, and chemical compositions. The duration of patent protection depends on the type of patent granted:

Design Patents - 15 years from issuance for applications filed on or after May 13, 2015 (14 years from issuance if filed before May 13, 2015)

Utility patents and plant patents - 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed.

Under certain circumstances, patent term extensions or adjustments may be available. For information on patents, please visit Patents or contact 800-786-9199."



Based upon the last line quoted, Benchmade may still have the right to use the Axis lock, if they were able to acquire an extension or adjustment. That question is still on the table.

Also, based upon what I learned about the differences of patents and trademarks, Benchmade could still hold the rights to the "Axis" trademark (which they can do if the fees are current). If so, then it appears that Ganzo is breaking the law any time they use the word in connection with marketing or sales within the US.

Of course, that brings up the question, if Ganzo made some minor changes to their product and changed the name to Omega Lock, would they be legal?

 

[KingMC]

Just admit that there are certain people on this forum that if you are unlucky enough to targeted by and you defend yourself against you are basically gonna be banned if you aren't a gold member.

You are starting to troll this thread by purposely going off-topic and attacking people instead of discussing the issue on hand. If you feel that personal attacks are necessary to further your point, please take it to the Whine and Cheese section where personal attacks are allowed and where true feelings can be shared without any worry about being off-topic.

If you continue to attack those you think are in the wrong by acting exactly like you think they act normally, you will only get yourself infracted for trolling. Can't blame that on anybody but yourself.

 

[Hackenslash]

OK, I think some of you are probably a little late for your meds (not naming names or anything), but I just went to my knife case and pulled out my newest model Benchmade knives with Axis Lock mechanisms...

My absolute newest is a 484-1601 that doesn't have any pertinent patent data. It's stamped Nakamura. Bummer, no info.
Next I went to my 20CV Grip 551 BK-1. There on the blade is "US Patent RE41259". Wow, let's see if that number holds up...
Likewise, on my 950 Rift is "US Patent RE41259". This may be a trend. Hold on to your arses.
My 530 says "US Patent RE41529"
My 531BKOD Grip says "US Patent RE41529"
My 556 Mini Grip says "US Patent RE41529"
My 943 says "US Patent RE41529"

I have a couple other Benchmades that are older and in a knife bag and I don't want to make a mess getting them out. I wouldn't be surprised if the older ones had a different number because, well...we'll get to that.

I even pulled out my H&K Axis Knife (made by Benchmade) and there on the blade is "US Patent RE41529".

There are a couple of dissenting opinions, however.
My Benchmade 300-1 says "US Patent RE41260"...we'll check on that later...
My Benchmade 707 says "US Patent No. 6,574,869", but then again it's one of my older BM's. We'll check on that later too.
My old H&K 14210 also says "US Patent No. 6,574,869"

So, let's focus on the predominant, current number RE41529. You can use USPTO.gov if you want, but that site makes my eyeballs bleed. I've found that patentbuddy.com is much more user friendly and actually provides more info than the official site.

When you search RE41529 you find some conflicting info. Yes, the Priority date is July 12, 1996, which would indicate that the expiry should be July of this year, but this new number is showing an Issue Date of April 27, 2010 and currently "In Force" (the Patent Buddy latency of up to 60 days has expired, btw). This doesn't make any sense from the patent laws as explained by Wikipedia or the Intertubes. USPTO shows the same info, but in a less user-friendly format.

RE41260 further muddies the waters by the patent tracing back to a process of using a retaining ring to secure one item to another. This made my brain melt. More confusing, this Patent has a priority date of Nov 28, 2001. Still in force by Wikipedia definition. Dang.

When we go to the old number, 6,574,869 we find what (I think) is the original Ingram/McHenry/Williams patent that spawned the Axis lock we know and love. This is the Patent that expires July 12, 2016, yet both sites show the patent still in force with a reference to, you guessed it, RE41529.

Look, sometimes I don't agree with Cray. Sometimes I think he's downright grumpy, but in this case I think he's on the side of right. There's more evidence to support the belief that the Axis Lock patent is still in force rather than expired. As he's said many times, we really won't know until this gets pulled into a court of law. The simple fact that KAI, Spyderco, CRKT and Cold Steel aren't debuting new models with "axial lock" speaks volumes.

At the end of the day, we all hope for better knives and better innovation. I don't fully understand how, but somehow a great amount of evidence makes it appear that the Axis Lock patent is still in effect. If you doubt how that might happen, feel free to Google "Apple Patent" or "Samsung Patent" and you'll see what I mean. When law gets in the hands of lawyers, there's no telling what you get on the other side. Money and law firms, sadly, control innovation and design.

I started posting this a while ago, it may be out of date by the time I click "post". If you've read this far, bless you! Be nicer to each other. The person you're flaming is somebody's child.

 

[sabre cat]

....Back to the thread topic (this thread), I did own a clone knife.
That was before the internet, and I did not know it was a copy or a clone.
The lock failed all the time, and the handle material gave me a rash.
It did introduce me to the Wave feature though, so once I got a computer, I got some Emerson knives.

The crappy clone was long gone, because it truly sucked.

Imagine that. Proof that, clones and copies can help our hobby by introducing a knife enthusiast to something new. Leading someone to buy the real deal.

Take note, Craytab

 

[Sirryacus]

You are starting to troll this thread by purposely going off-topic and attacking people instead of discussing the issue on hand. If you feel that personal attacks are necessary to further your point, please take it to the Whine and Cheese section where personal attacks are allowed and where true feelings can be shared without any worry about being off-topic.

If you continue to attack those you think are in the wrong by acting exactly like you think they act normally, you will only get yourself infracted for trolling. Can't blame that on anybody but yourself.

So basically you are admitting that they can get away with trolling me but I cannot get away with doing the same to them? I'm glad someone can finally be honest about how things work around here I commend you for telling the truth.

 

[KingMC]

Imagine that. Proof that, clones and copies can help our hobby by introducing a knife enthusiast to something new. Leading someone to buy the real deal.

Take note, Craytab

You can get the same experience from $5 walmart specials, a knife doesn't have to be a counterfeit to suck.

Counterfeit knives don't help the businesses they copy from, they directly steal sales from them.

 

[The_Iron_Joe]

Hackenslash, nice work, and good idea.

I've done a few minutes of searching (seriously, less than 10 minutes since I've been home at a computer), and I've found some patents held by McHenry Williams, who Benchmade licences the Axis Lock mechanism from; this is the earliest version I could find, dating back to 1996. There are other versions, the newest seemingly filed in 2001, which I'm sure have several variations of the tool.

[EDIT] I realize that I should probably highlight my findings; there are NO patents that I could find under the McHenry Williams name or otherwise that are specific to the Axis Lock as we know it, however, the lock is adequately covered in the patent to the extent that I believe it to be under legal protection. The patent itself is labelled as expired. Google pulls the patent information from the official database, the USPTO (I think). [/EDIT]

Since I am a Canadian with limited insight to the U.S. patent procedures, I will refrain from saying more, other than the fact that the patent, and the later versions, are all expired. However, there are means of extending patents in the US, so I'll have to do more investigating.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5737841A/en

[EDIT] again for mentioning that I do not condone counterfeits, or whatever else you want to call them. Legal copies, ie, those made after the expiry date on a patent, and especially those who IMPROVE upon the design, or execute it to a higher standard, I think belong in a different category.

 

[sabre cat]

You can get the same experience from $5 walmart specials, a knife doesn't have to be a counterfeit to suck.

Counterfeit knives don't help the businesses they copy from, they directly steal sales from them.

It helped Emerson.

 

[mtangent]

US Patent No: RE41529
Method of optimal power calibration
Stats
Aug 17, 2010
ISSUED DATE Aug 30, 2007
FILING DATE Apr 17, 2001
11/847,840
SERIAL NO In Force
STATUS (Latency Note)
Patent Analytics Full Text Legal Status
Importance
Loading Importance Indicators... loading....
Abstract
See full text
A method of optimal power calibration adapted to rewritable or recordable disks is disclosed. In addition to an original power calibration area (PCA) in the inner track of a disk, another rearranged PCA is allocated in the lead-out area of the outmost track. Two optimal power calibration processes are performed on both of the power calibration areas allocated on the inner and outmost tracks to respectively derived optimal recording powers. A relation curve is established by using these two optimal recording powers that this relation curve describes the relationships between the optimal recording powers of the recording positions and the distances from these recording positions to the center of the optical storage disk. Required optimal recording power of any recording position can be derived from the relation curve while performing data recording operations.


The above is a copy/paste from Patent buddy. Not a knife lock.

 

[craytab]

OK, I think some of you are probably a little late for your meds (not naming names or anything), but I just went to my knife case and pulled out my newest model Benchmade knives with Axis Lock mechanisms...

My absolute newest is a 484-1601 that doesn't have any pertinent patent data. It's stamped Nakamura. Bummer, no info.
Next I went to my 20CV Grip 551 BK-1. There on the blade is "US Patent RE41259". Wow, let's see if that number holds up...
Likewise, on my 950 Rift is "US Patent RE41259". This may be a trend. Hold on to your arses.
My 530 says "US Patent RE41529"
My 531BKOD Grip says "US Patent RE41529"
My 556 Mini Grip says "US Patent RE41529"
My 943 says "US Patent RE41529"

I have a couple other Benchmades that are older and in a knife bag and I don't want to make a mess getting them out. I wouldn't be surprised if the older ones had a different number because, well...we'll get to that.

I even pulled out my H&K Axis Knife (made by Benchmade) and there on the blade is "US Patent RE41529".

There are a couple of dissenting opinions, however.
My Benchmade 300-1 says "US Patent RE41260"...we'll check on that later...
My Benchmade 707 says "US Patent No. 6,574,869", but then again it's one of my older BM's. We'll check on that later too.
My old H&K 14210 also says "US Patent No. 6,574,869"

So, let's focus on the predominant, current number RE41529. You can use USPTO.gov if you want, but that site makes my eyeballs bleed. I've found that patentbuddy.com is much more user friendly and actually provides more info than the official site.

When you search RE41529 you find some conflicting info. Yes, the Priority date is July 12, 1996, which would indicate that the expiry should be July of this year, but this new number is showing an Issue Date of April 27, 2010 and currently "In Force" (the Patent Buddy latency of up to 60 days has expired, btw). This doesn't make any sense from the patent laws as explained by Wikipedia or the Intertubes. USPTO shows the same info, but in a less user-friendly format.

RE41260 further muddies the waters by the patent tracing back to a process of using a retaining ring to secure one item to another. This made my brain melt. More confusing, this Patent has a priority date of Nov 28, 2001. Still in force by Wikipedia definition. Dang.

When we go to the old number, 6,574,869 we find what (I think) is the original Ingram/McHenry/Williams patent that spawned the Axis lock we know and love. This is the Patent that expires July 12, 2016, yet both sites show the patent still in force with a reference to, you guessed it, RE41529.

Look, sometimes I don't agree with Cray. Sometimes I think he's downright grumpy, but in this case I think he's on the side of right. There's more evidence to support the belief that the Axis Lock patent is still in force rather than expired. As he's said many times, we really won't know until this gets pulled into a court of law. The simple fact that KAI, Spyderco, CRKT and Cold Steel aren't debuting new models with "axial lock" speaks volumes.

At the end of the day, we all hope for better knives and better innovation. I don't fully understand how, but somehow a great amount of evidence makes it appear that the Axis Lock patent is still in effect. If you doubt how that might happen, feel free to Google "Apple Patent" or "Samsung Patent" and you'll see what I mean. When law gets in the hands of lawyers, there's no telling what you get on the other side. Money and law firms, sadly, control innovation and design.

I started posting this a while ago, it may be out of date by the time I click "post". If you've read this far, bless you! Be nicer to each other. The person you're flaming is somebody's child.

Thank you for doing the leg work. The reason we can't post the links to the patent website is because the link will expire. Anyone who actually cares can go look it up. Even see the fee schedule. Not rocket science.

 

[davek14]

OK, I think some of you are probably a little late for your meds (not naming names or anything), but I just went to my knife case and pulled out my newest model Benchmade knives with Axis Lock mechanisms...

My absolute newest is a 484-1601 that doesn't have any pertinent patent data. It's stamped Nakamura. Bummer, no info.
Next I went to my 20CV Grip 551 BK-1. There on the blade is "US Patent RE41259". Wow, let's see if that number holds up...
Likewise, on my 950 Rift is "US Patent RE41259". This may be a trend. Hold on to your arses.
My 530 says "US Patent RE41529"
My 531BKOD Grip says "US Patent RE41529"
My 556 Mini Grip says "US Patent RE41529"
My 943 says "US Patent RE41529"

I have a couple other Benchmades that are older and in a knife bag and I don't want to make a mess getting them out. I wouldn't be surprised if the older ones had a different number because, well...we'll get to that.

I even pulled out my H&K Axis Knife (made by Benchmade) and there on the blade is "US Patent RE41529".

There are a couple of dissenting opinions, however.
My Benchmade 300-1 says "US Patent RE41260"...we'll check on that later...
My Benchmade 707 says "US Patent No. 6,574,869", but then again it's one of my older BM's. We'll check on that later too.
My old H&K 14210 also says "US Patent No. 6,574,869"

So, let's focus on the predominant, current number RE41529. You can use USPTO.gov if you want, but that site makes my eyeballs bleed. I've found that patentbuddy.com is much more user friendly and actually provides more info than the official site.

When you search RE41529 you find some conflicting info. Yes, the Priority date is July 12, 1996, which would indicate that the expiry should be July of this year, but this new number is showing an Issue Date of April 27, 2010 and currently "In Force" (the Patent Buddy latency of up to 60 days has expired, btw). This doesn't make any sense from the patent laws as explained by Wikipedia or the Intertubes. USPTO shows the same info, but in a less user-friendly format.

RE41260 further muddies the waters by the patent tracing back to a process of using a retaining ring to secure one item to another. This made my brain melt. More confusing, this Patent has a priority date of Nov 28, 2001. Still in force by Wikipedia definition. Dang.

When we go to the old number, 6,574,869 we find what (I think) is the original Ingram/McHenry/Williams patent that spawned the Axis lock we know and love. This is the Patent that expires July 12, 2016, yet both sites show the patent still in force with a reference to, you guessed it, RE41529.

Look, sometimes I don't agree with Cray. Sometimes I think he's downright grumpy, but in this case I think he's on the side of right. There's more evidence to support the belief that the Axis Lock patent is still in force rather than expired. As he's said many times, we really won't know until this gets pulled into a court of law. The simple fact that KAI, Spyderco, CRKT and Cold Steel aren't debuting new models with "axial lock" speaks volumes.

At the end of the day, we all hope for better knives and better innovation. I don't fully understand how, but somehow a great amount of evidence makes it appear that the Axis Lock patent is still in effect. If you doubt how that might happen, feel free to Google "Apple Patent" or "Samsung Patent" and you'll see what I mean. When law gets in the hands of lawyers, there's no telling what you get on the other side. Money and law firms, sadly, control innovation and design.

I started posting this a while ago, it may be out of date by the time I click "post". If you've read this far, bless you! Be nicer to each other. The person you're flaming is somebody's child.

Got busy with life.

Thanks for all that. The bold text is my point from the start. The innovation, combination of features and less expensive product that patents going public domain after a reasonable time encourages is unarguably good for the hobby. Stockman patterns and such aren't public domain because "no one remembers who designed them", but because no one would have even thought of bleeding money out of them for so long back then.

Sorry if I sounded "defensive" I was attempting to be civil.

And... don't some of you feel ashamed about poor Sirryacus.

 

[Danke42]

Five Million, Seven hundred and thirty seven thousand, eight hundred and forty one.

 

[davek14]

41529?????

inquiring minds want to know
At least real info about a knife patent is being disseminated without games...mostly
Cya tomorry

 

[robgmn]

Then prove the patent has expired. You can't. I've already gone over this in this thread. Sorry you are late to the game bud but it all happened a while ago.

Without a patent lawyer, a judge, and a case involving the axis lock all you have is your opinion on the subject :thumbup:

Actually, I CAN prove what I have stated and can do so quite easily, since you asked for it:

This is the patent info for the Axis lock that is NOT owned by Benchmade, merely licensed to them.

Publication number US5737841 A
Publication type Grant
Application number US 08/679,122
Publication date Apr 14, 1998
Filing date Jul 12, 1996
Priority date Jul 12, 1996
Fee status Paid
Also published as EP1071546A1, 7 More »
Inventors William J. McHenry, Jason L. Williams
Original Assignee Mchenry; William J., Williams; Jason L.
Export Citation BiBTeX, EndNote, RefMan
Patent Citations (12), Referenced by (86), Classifications (5), Legal Events (5)
ABSTRACT
Knives (10, 182) each include a handle (12, 184) having a blade (14, 90, 194) pivotally attached to the handle. The blade is movable between a closed posiiton in which it is received within a groove (36, 192) of the handle and an open position. The blade has a working portion (38, 198) and a tang portion (44, 98, 204), which remains within the groove when the blade is in its open position. A locking pin (72, 208) extends transversely of the handle and blade and is movable along a pair of elongated openings (74, 216), and engages the tang portion (44, 98, 204) of the blade to lock the blade in its open position. A spring (78, 228) biases the locking pin toward the tang.

Notice the filing date of JULY 12, 1996.

From the US Patent Office website:
1505 Allowance and Term of Design Patent [R-07.2015]
35 U.S.C. 173 Term of design patent.
Patents issued from design applications filed on or after May 13, 2015 shall be granted for the term of fifteen years from the date of grant. Patents issued from design applications filed before May 13, 2015 shall be granted for the term of fourteen years from the date of grant.

2701 Patent Term [R-07.2015]
35 U.S.C. 154 Contents and term of patent; provisional rights.
(a) IN GENERAL.—
*****
(2) TERM.—Subject to the payment of fees under this title, such grant shall be for a term beginning on the date on which the patent issues and ending 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application or applications under section 120, 121, 365(c), or 386(c) from the date on which the earliest such application was filed.

20 years have passed since the filing date of July, 1996 for the Axis lock. This covers the span of the Design patent AND the Utility patent. The patent has expired, and a lawyer, court case, or judge is not required to verify it. The LAW of patents, as listed on the US Patent Office website is what it is - LAW, Even the patent is labelled as "expired".
If you don't believe the info about patents that is provided by the US Patent Office, and you don't believe the law applies to this particular patent, then there is obviously no way you will ever accept that your opinion does not trump fact..

 

[craytab]

Again folks, why speculate. There is the wonderful patent website to look up whatever you want!

 

[The_Iron_Joe]

Again folks, why speculate. There is the wonderful patent website to look up whatever you want!

Wait, wait, isn't there a provision where another entity (person, company) can make a new patent that encompasses the old (expired) one? I'm honestly asking, I think that's a thing, but I'm not sure.

 

[craytab]

Just opinion. Show me some case law with the axis lock. Until then all we have is words on a forum that doesn't support counterfeits.

 

[robgmn]

Again folks, why speculate. There is the wonderful patent website to look up whatever you want!

YOU are the one speculating, and denying what has been PROVEN!
<shaking head in disbelief>

Just opinion. Show me some case law with the axis lock. Until then all we have is words on a forum that doesn't support counterfeits.

YOU are the ones refuting FACTS with your opinions!

 

[robgmn]

(duplicate)