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Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

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Wilsonhome said:
Patent life is often a little bit moe complicated than it may seem. Two things I would note on this for consideration. If you look at the patent transaction history I believe you will see that there as an initial refusal of he patent and other actions that could have qualified the patent for term adjustment. I could only guesstimate, but the initial denial of the patent looks like it could potentially have added about a year. Additionally, there were other small delays. Second, if you look at subsequent filings you can see that the patent owner has been following what appears to be a continuation-in-part strategy. This is not generally a very strong approach to patent life extension but it is possible they could have gained some time through this process. I assume they must think they are gaining somethin as continued filings are not free of significant legal costs.
Click to expand...

When axis patent goes up, there's gonna be lots of knives with them that aren't gouging the consumer with high MAP pricing!!!!

(I'm just teasing no flame war!)
 
robgmn said:
I stated how you are acting, which is a fact and not an insult.
If you want to feel insulted, you should do some self-examination. It appears you cannot read what is very clearly posted twice.
I'll assume it's by choice, as I highly doubt you are the ONLY one here who is unable to see ONLY the facts I have presented (but can see all of the other text).

Maybe if someone else quotes my post, you'll be able to see the text.
Click to expand...

Here ill post it for you so Craytab can see......Here you go Craytab.


Actually, I CAN prove what I have stated and can do so quite easily, since you asked for it:

This is the patent info for the Axis lock that is NOT owned by Benchmade, merely licensed to them.

Publication number US5737841 A
Publication type Grant
Application number US 08/679,122
Publication date Apr 14, 1998
Filing date Jul 12, 1996
Priority date Jul 12, 1996
Fee status Paid
Also published as EP1071546A1, 7 More »
Inventors William J. McHenry, Jason L. Williams
Original Assignee Mchenry; William J., Williams; Jason L.
Export Citation BiBTeX, EndNote, RefMan
Patent Citations (12), Referenced by (86), Classifications (5), Legal Events (5)
ABSTRACT
Knives (10, 182) each include a handle (12, 184) having a blade (14, 90, 194) pivotally attached to the handle. The blade is movable between a closed posiiton in which it is received within a groove (36, 192) of the handle and an open position. The blade has a working portion (38, 198) and a tang portion (44, 98, 204), which remains within the groove when the blade is in its open position. A locking pin (72, 208) extends transversely of the handle and blade and is movable along a pair of elongated openings (74, 216), and engages the tang portion (44, 98, 204) of the blade to lock the blade in its open position. A spring (78, 228) biases the locking pin toward the tang.

Notice the filing date of JULY 12, 1996.

From the US Patent Office website:
1505 Allowance and Term of Design Patent [R-07.2015]
35 U.S.C. 173 Term of design patent.
Patents issued from design applications filed on or after May 13, 2015 shall be granted for the term of fifteen years from the date of grant. Patents issued from design applications filed before May 13, 2015 shall be granted for the term of fourteen years from the date of grant.

2701 Patent Term [R-07.2015]
35 U.S.C. 154 Contents and term of patent; provisional rights.
(a) IN GENERAL.—
*****
(2) TERM.—Subject to the payment of fees under this title, such grant shall be for a term beginning on the date on which the patent issues and ending 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application or applications under section 120, 121, 365(c), or 386(c) from the date on which the earliest such application was filed.

20 years have passed since the filing date of July, 1996 for the Axis lock. This covers the span of the Design patent AND the Utility patent. The patent has expired, and a lawyer, court case, or judge is not required to verify it. The LAW of patents, as listed on the US Patent Office website is what it is - LAW, Even the patent is labelled as "expired".
If you don't believe the info about patents that is provided by the US Patent Office, and you don't believe the law applies to this particular patent, then there is obviously no way you will ever accept that your opinion does not trump fact..
 
I like how Stabman introduced toads to the thread.
Here's some cuddling toads.

1-newtinyarbor_zpsjxfcd8j7.jpg


Here's my Rift with it's BM Axis lock. Genuine. Like the affection the toads are sharing.

DSC00053_zpszwj7hear.jpg


I knife that is stolen/copied/faked from someone else's work will not be in my pocket. Nor will cuddling toads, albeit for quite a different reason.
 
Considering China technically owns a 1/4 of our countries debt, in the realm of reality chinese producing clones of domestic products doesn't really matter. So let's all quit bitching and just get along and post photos of cut fingers and laugh.
 
craytab said:
The thing with that Rat 1 knock off is that it has a counterfeit axis lock. It is a clone and counterfeit at once. What would it cost ganzo to either license the axis lock or produce an equivalent lock like other have done? I believe this makes the ganzo rat 1 with an axis lock not a copy of an inexpensive knife.
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Not the Ganzo clone dude. He means true counterfeit knives stamped with Ontario's logos and liner lock as the original that are being sold as real RATs. A price tag of $13 should be a hint if you question the legitimacy of a listing.

I also don't see a point in getting upset that Ganzo uses an Axis Lock. Simple fact is that Benchmade does it better with higher quality materials and is superior in every way. If a person spends $15 for a knife with an Axis Lock but never buys a Benchmade, then it's more plausible that they were never going to spend that higher amount anyway, which is why they went with the Ganzo in the first place.

Also, I have a Benchmade Volli, but zero Ganzo knives.
 
JupiterPaladin said:
....I also don't see a point in getting upset that Ganzo uses an Axis Lock. Simple fact is that Benchmade does it better with higher quality materials and is superior in every way. If a person spends $15 for a knife with an Axis Lock but never buys a Benchmade, then it's more plausible that they were never going to spend that higher amount anyway, which is why they went with the Ganzo in the first place.

Also, I have a Benchmade Volli, but zero Ganzo knives.
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I have to agree. Some people will always buy the cheapest thing they can. No matter what.

BTW, Have you de-assisted your Volli or is it stock?
 
sabre cat said:
I have to agree. Some people will always buy the cheapest thing they can. No matter what.

BTW, Have you de-assisted your Volli or is it stock?
Click to expand...

It was de-assisted when I got it. Looking into replacement parts led me to the reason people commonly de-assist them so I decided to leave it that way.
 
robgmn said:
Fixed it for you.
(Even though it was all already provided)
Click to expand...

This isn't the part of the forum where you can change what others say in a quote to insult them. Nice try though. Proves my point if you have to stoop that low. Here's a little screen grab as evidence in case you want to change it later:

wc0jO8yh.jpg


This is the lengths you will go to to support counterfeiting. Personal written insults weren't enough. You had to go further.


EveeEv said:
Here ill post it for you so Craytab can see......Here you go Craytab.
Click to expand...

I have looked at the actual patent many times on the patent website. Have you?


davek14 said:
http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair

tick "patent number"

RE41259

That wasn't hard to communicate.

I've got to get to work. Anyone figure out on what basis this is issued?
Click to expand...

I know right? All you have to do is go to the patent website and enter that patent number. And when you do so you will see the issue date of the patent is 04-27-2010. Seems simple enough. But when you do go to that lovely website you can look up all the info including fees paid. Now why would you pay fees on a patent if it was going to expire in a year?

Seriously folks, go look it up for yourself and then you decide. And even then we will never really know until there is actual legal action taken regarding this patent. This stuff is that complicated. But until then I will continue to point out that it is the policy of this forum that counterfeits hurt this hobby, the knock off axis lock being a prime example. And with that, this will be the last post I make in this thread. Constantly repeating myself and taking personal insults from the regular counterfeit supporters here has jumped the shark. See you guys in the next dumb counterfeit thread!
 
Hackenslash said:
Oops, sorry. I must be dyslexic. RE41259. Sorry folks...
Click to expand...

Thanks, Im going to take a look at that one sometime today. i wonder if it has 5737841 as a related patent. If I recall correctly, the RE designates the patent as reissued, potentially due to new claims (potentially for other reasons).
 
I wonder if Benchmade (or the actual owners of the patent) are just getting patents for components or features of the axis lock rather than the entire Axis lock concept or assembly. Seems patenting it piece by piece could give quite a few more years of protection. Since part of it has expired at least a copy would need to be changed a bit to avoid and similar components.

Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk
 
Wilsonhome said:
Thanks, Im going to take a look at that one sometime today. i wonder if it has 5737841 as a related patent. If I recall correctly, the RE designates the patent as reissued, potentially due to new claims (potentially for other reasons).
Click to expand...

That's my thought. Somehow fancy lawyers in their fancy suits were able to use fancy legalese to demonstrate a new application not originally designated for the Axis Lock mechanism. An example would be the original patent demonstrating it's use in a knife and the new application demonstrating it's use in a tool. That's grossly oversimplified, but kind of what I think has happened.

Either way, it sure looks like the patent for the Axis Lock is still in effect, like it or not. I guess we really won't know until somebody that Benchmade/McHenry/Williams can actually sue infringes on the patent. Then the courts will sort out how "protected" the Axis mechanism is.
 
craytab said:
This isn't the part of the forum where you can change what others say in a quote to insult them. Nice try though. Proves my point if you have to stoop that low. Here's a little screen grab as evidence in case you want to change it later:

wc0jO8yh.jpg


This is the lengths you will go to to support counterfeiting. Personal written insults weren't enough. You had to go further.




I have looked at the actual patent many times on the patent website. Have you?




I know right? All you have to do is go to the patent website and enter that patent number. And when you do so you will see the issue date of the patent is 04-27-2010. Seems simple enough. But when you do go to that lovely website you can look up all the info including fees paid. Now why would you pay fees on a patent if it was going to expire in a year?

Seriously folks, go look it up for yourself and then you decide. And even then we will never really know until there is actual legal action taken regarding this patent. This stuff is that complicated. But until then I will continue to point out that it is the policy of this forum that counterfeits hurt this hobby, the knock off axis lock being a prime example. And with that, this will be the last post I make in this thread. Constantly repeating myself and taking personal insults from the regular counterfeit supporters here has jumped the shark. See you guys in the next dumb counterfeit thread!
Click to expand...

Keep fishing for something that will support your unsubstantiated opinion (and drop the "namecalling" accusation. If namecalling really bothered you, your post history wouldn't show that 90% of your posts start with calling someone a very foul name. I can prove that TOO, if you want to deny it).

Expiration is based on filing date, not issue date.

A filing date of mid-1996 means that (since we have passed mid-2016), 20 years is over and done.
Ya' see, 2016-1996=20
If you're still confused, you can look at it this way:
1996 Filed.
1997 - year 1
1998 - year 2
1999 - year 3
2000 - year 4
....
2005 - year 9
2006 - year 10
....
2010 - year 14
2011 - year 15
2012 - year 16
2013 - year 17
2014 - year 18
2015 - year 19
2016 - year 20

Much like the special calendar they give cashiers so they know who can buy cigarettes, "Anything that existed before yesterday's date in 1996 is twenty years old".
A utility patent expires 20 years after the FILING DATE (design patents are even shorter).
The FILING DATE was prior to yesterday's date, but in 1996.
Therefore IT IS MORE THAN 20 YEARS SINCE THE FILING DATE.

Can you accept that as fact, or will you keep arguing your unsubstantiated nonsense as if it WERE fact?
 
DrFish said:
http://www.bpmlegal.com/howtoterm.html

https://www.google.com/patents/USRE41259

Go by the original priority date, not by the 2010 national phase entry date. As has been said, they are probably going to gain a year or two extension due to delays, but the patent is either expired or about to expire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thank you very much sir. Could you explain what the phase entry date is?

A lot of seemingly contradictory information there. Would this mean that fees were paid in these years of the patent?

The filing date on re41259 is in 1998. "Publication date" is Apr 27 2010.

But this shows "issue date" of Apr 27 2010 and the word "reissue"

And to muddy the waters further
 
The McHenry/Williams patent is 6 mllion-something. What's your point? They're not talking about the RE number, they're talking about the original patent.

There are too many armchair lawyers trying to practice law in this thread. There's only one correct answer: we, as lay people, simply can't know for certain. Until we know for certain, best to assume any knife bearing an Axis lock that isn't Benchmade or H&K may be violating the rights of a vital member of the knife making community. Any other stance belies your respect for the industry.

If only people would argue for decency with the same vigor that they argue for justification.
 
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