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Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

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Hackenslash said:
Killgar, I've enjoyed this discussion too, but as I've stated above, it is rather pointless.
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Heck, this is an internet forum, the perfect place for pointless debate. Like I always say, if I'm here posting, it's because I've got free time to kill and nothing better to do. I assume that applies to everyone here. :D

I'd like to clear up one thing. I'd love to see Benchmade/McHenry/Williams sue the pants off of Amazon for patent infringement but it's a complicated issue. We all know who has the most money and who could carry this out ad-nasuem to the point that only attorneys would win. We aren't privy to the legal decisions between the parties and therefor aren't in a position to pass judgement. Just don't buy copies. That's what it comes back to. That's what it always comes back to.
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Although I shed no tears for Benchmade, it was thinking about McHenry and Williams, their patent, and the infringement on their patent that caused me to change my mind about Ganzo. I makes lots of things, and sometimes people tell me "You should patent that", so I was thinking to myself how I would feel if I invented something, went through the time, effort, and expense of obtaining a patent, and then someone copied my PATENTED idea completely and was selling it in the US. I wouldn't like that.

But again, that's just my point of view. And I don't think ill of others who disagree, or don't care about patent infringement, or buy Ganzo, because that's just the way I am. My friends who own Ganzo knives are still my friends, with no loss of respect from me.

It's been good jawing with you Hackenslash (even if we disagree on some things). Sorry to see you go. This thread will end sooner or later. Either it will die a natural death and just fade away, or a moderator will come along and put it down. Frankly, I'm amazed it's gone on this long. Kudos to the moderators for alowing us to have our fun.
 
I think this has been the longest, most civil discussion we've ever had on this topic here at BF. High regards to all who've participated. I respect your views even in disagreement!
 
I'm a fan

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clearkevin said:
Hey Guys
I want to put this question out there even though I know it will cause some drama. I don't want anyone to be a jerk but speak from the heart as I really want to know. I have different feelings about fakes vs clones, vs copies, vs using an idea. I feel the fake is the worst and totally wrong, a clone still sucks but at least people know what they are getting, a copy which I would say differs from a clone by being similar by not an exact replica lacks creativity but is not that big a deal. Then finally using another persons idea. An example of one company doing this is Ganzo but consider that many manufacturers have something close (a copy) to the axis lock. What are your thoughts. Kershaw's lawsuits going on now have me thinking about this, I have a DOC and love it but the lock is kind of Kershaw's idea. What does everyone else think.
PS lets keep the concept of country of manufacture for another discussion
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To answer the actual question honestly:

True counterfeit knives should be eradicated. When you are aware of how to spot them it's not as big of a problem, but most knife buyers lack the proper knowledge to determine that. Those people suffer the worst when paying near full retail and getting garbage.

Copies don't bother me at all as long as the manufacturer is proudly stamping their own logo and using the materials they claim. Many companies offer literally the same knives without being chastised for it. They give an opportunity to try new features, carry styles, blade shapes, etc. with little investment. I have personally experienced clones giving exposure to new designs and causing the original quality offerings to be purchased or considered when it would not have otherwise.

Homage knives are fine. Normally they are just aesthetically similar enough to see where the design originated, but clearly not a full on clone. Example Sanrenmu 710 looks like a Sebenza but is smaller, with a slightly different blade profile, different style thumb studs, and budget materials. Classy looking but in no way even close to a replacement. Different markets totally.

Of all the derision for Ganzo over the Axis Lock, again which I don't believe was all that original, and Ganzo's version is inferior, but I like some of their liner/frame locks. I wouldn't mind having a G732 for a beater or loaner. I got an Endura on my short list, most likely my next knife purchase, and I would not hand that to someone else to use, but the Ganzo I wouldn't care if it were mistreated. It would also serve as practice sharpening for the FFG leaf shape as I suck at sharpening still and would rather not bubba my real Endura! I will get the real Endura first tho because nothing else would appease me but the real thing, other than maybe a Manix or Delica if I have cash and the deal presents itself. Yes I will check the Exchange, and yes I know I could pick up a Cara Cara 2, but I like colors.
 
I can't believe this thread has gone so long, lots of good thoughts here. I know Ganzo got a lot of discussion and that's fine but there are other companies Enlan/ Bee for example that use the axis lock and as has been pointed out they are not breaking their laws but totally stealing someone's idea. There is one aspect of this that we could comment on, does it make a difference that Ganzo is not really a competitor to Benchmade? or even HK for that matter. I know they both make knives but in terms of customers they are not trying for the same market. This is the main reason I don't get as upset (I don't love it) over Ganzo or even Enlan as I do other companies. I plan to reach out to another channel and discuss a collaboration video about this topic so all the input is really great.
 
I agree that Ganzo and the others are in a different market. $15 knives can't compete with top quality manufacturing, super steels, and brand recognition.
 
True, but the market demographic is not so much the point, it's the fact that they are in the same OVERALL market (the knife market).

For example, the Axis lock is very similar to a barrel lock on a pistol I have (that was manufactured twenty years before the patent under discussion here existed). Two different items, two different markets. No harm, no foul.
However, using the Axis lock while it's protected by patent on any folding knife is where the legal "foul" can be called.

Some can get upset that an idea is being stolen (or even a "perfect clone" being made), but if it is done legally the only complaint someone could have is that they don't "like" it happening. There are some cultures where the idea of copying others' work is perfectly acceptable (maybe even encouraged). That's their call, not ours.
 
I dont know. I handled a Navy version of Benchmade Skirmish and decided NOT to buy the Benchmade because (1) someone on YouTube (?) said the two have quite similar quality, and (2) the Navy felt really bad and cheap in hand.

Was it Navy or Ganzo, I dont remember clearly.
 
sharp_edge said:
I dont know. I handled a Navy version of Benchmade Skirmish and decided NOT to buy the Benchmade because (1) someone on YouTube (?) said the two have quite similar quality, and (2) the Navy felt really bad and cheap in hand.

Was it Navy or Ganzo, I dont remember clearly.
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Never handled the navy/gonzo so can't speak to the quality, but my brother has a Benchmade Skirmish and it is a near perfect specimen.

If you didn't care for the ergonomics, that may or may not translate depending on how close the contours are copied. However, the materials used are different and will affect the overall feel with the navy being g10 with a steel frame lock while the Benchmade is Ti frame lock.

If you like the design and can swing the price I would recommend giving it a go and not just judging it based on a crappy knife from a completely different manufacturer and a YouTube video.
 
Robgmn - I mentioned a few times that the Axis Lock was a revolver cylinder lock put on a knife. So it's not exactly original. I understand infringing on a patent, but it was a borrowed idea in the first place. I tend to be less forgiving of that situation because it seems a bit hypocritical for somebody to complain that somebody is using their stolen idea. Again, they do it best, but I don't understand why Sam Colt's estate isn't getting royalties on that patent. It goes back to legal vs moral.
 
We've had Gonzo journalism, Gonzo the great, there's Gonzo beer. We've discussed beer, beer is good.

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I have a baseball signed by Luis Gonzalez. His nickname is "Gonzo". I don't think he makes knives though...
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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NJBillK said:
You rang?
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“You won't find reasonable men on the tops of tall mountains.”

“Sex without love is as hollow and ridiculous as love without sex.”

(Hunter S Thompson)

Kevin John knives is fitting at the end. We all agree those are counterfeit I think.


Who is going to do the honors and get to 400 so the thread can be gone-zo?
 
My own experience has been that while I have in at least one instance used a "clone", I did know that it wasnt a Cold Steel TrailMaster tho it looked like one. A cheap Chinese stainless knock-off, maybe summa you have seen them... Thing was, for $25 I could do things with it Id never do to my Cold Steel C-5s. Wish I'd got two while they were available, gave mine away and have missed it since... Oh well, I still got TrailMasters to use or abuse if need be!
 
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