Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[JupiterPaladin]

Thomas - It was mentioned earlier in the thread that some people disagree with using a design that isn't original even though it's legal to do so. I was merely pointing out that some things get a pass with those people. There are quite literally only so many useful designs for knives and their locks and deployment options before everything is just a derivative of something else. People should lighten up. I don't care if the Axis Lock is original to Benchmade (which I have repeatedly pointed out that it is a derivative of a revolver cylinder lock), they do it best so I have one. I don't find the cheaper alternative to be confidence inspiring but I wouldn't deride them for trying. If you don't have much cash and want to try it then it serves a purpose. If anything I'd assume that exposure would put the real deal on their wish list when no exposure may have left it as not an option. I handled a cheap Delica knockoff. I hadn't even considered a Spyderco before, but knowing that the design was so functional I literally put the real Spydies to the top of my list. I will be getting a Delica, Endura, Manix, PM and a Military because the cheap clone gave me exposure.
TL;DR - A single Frost Cutlery clone will give Spyderco 5+ sales just to me, and 2 more for my nephew and brother-in-law.

 

[Seneca18]

Actually my questions were exactly on topic with this thread- the morality, ethics, and "right or wrong" of making, selling, buying, and supporting the vendors who sell Ganzo knives. If people are going to preach morality, ethics, and principles on this forum, they should be prepared to have those morals, ethics, and principles challenged.

Nowhere in my post did I ask- "Is it alright to buy Ganzo knives since Amazon sells them?". My questions were as direct and clear as they could be-

1. Since Amazon sells Ganzo knives, does that make Amazon a despicable company? You didn't answer that question (nor has anyone else).

2. Are people "bad people" if they shop on Amazon, and give Amazon their money, even though they know Amazon sells Ganzo? Neither you nor anyone else answered that question either.

3. Are people being hypocrites if they say that vendors who sell Ganzo are "hurting the knife industry, and the knife community/hobby", but continue to shop on Amazon? I guess if the people who rail against Ganzo shop on Amazon, order food from Amazon, or pay to watch Amazon programs, that they wouldn't want to answer that question as well.

But that's alright. When answering a question could expose a persons hypocrisy I can understand if they wouldn't want to answer, and instead try to completely change the subject.

When people publicly proclaim the superiority of their principles, but they do not actually practice those principles throughout their daily lives, then it's not "principle", it's "posturing".

Fine, Amazon is a deplorable company! It doesn't impact me, I don't use Amazon, haven't in years. Personally I could care less about Amazon, it is a giant company that cannot possibly screen all their products, however I choose to take my business to other places. There is a reason you don't see Ganzo knives on BladeHQ or other reputable vendors. If you feel justified in your support of Ganzo then fine, it doesn't impact me personally but facts are facts.

 

[robgmn]

actually my questions were exactly on topic with this thread- the morality, ethics, and "right or wrong" of making, selling, buying, and supporting the vendors who sell ganzo knives. If people are going to preach morality, ethics, and principles on this forum, they should be prepared to have those morals, ethics, and principles challenged.

Nowhere in my post did i ask- "is it alright to buy ganzo knives since amazon sells them?". My questions were as direct and clear as they could be-

1. Since amazon sells ganzo knives, does that make amazon a despicable company? You didn't answer that question (nor has anyone else).

2. Are people "bad people" if they shop on amazon, and give amazon their money, even though they know amazon sells ganzo? Neither you nor anyone else answered that question either.

3. Are people being hypocrites if they say that vendors who sell ganzo are "hurting the knife industry, and the knife community/hobby", but continue to shop on amazon? I guess if the people who rail against ganzo shop on amazon, order food from amazon, or pay to watch amazon programs, that they wouldn't want to answer that question as well.

But that's alright. When answering a question could expose a persons hypocrisy i can understand if they wouldn't want to answer, and instead try to completely change the subject.

When people publicly proclaim the superiority of their principles, but they do not actually practice those principles throughout their daily lives, then it's not "principle", it's "posturing".

bingo

 

[killgar]

Fine, Amazon is a deplorable company! It doesn't impact me, I don't use Amazon, haven't in years. Personally I could care less about Amazon,

Thank you for answering at least ONE of my questions.

it is a giant company that cannot possibly screen all their products,

That's funny, it sounds like your making excuses for Amazon. Who says they can't possibly screen all of their products? And if they don't know about the Ganzo "controversy", I'm guessing if enough people contacted Amazon and complained, that they would certainly become aware.

There is a reason you don't see Ganzo knives on BladeHQ or other reputable vendors.

Funny thing about BladeHQ, they regularly ship switchblades across state lines, which is a direct violation of Federal law. So I wonder about your definition of "reputable vendors". I wonder, if vendors who sell Ganzo knives are bad for the knife industry, and the knife community/hobby, what about vendors who routinely violate Federal law?

If you feel justified in your support of Ganzo then fine, it doesn't impact me personally but facts are facts.

Well see, that's where you really made a wrong turn. Nowhere in this thread did I defend Ganzo or try to justify the purchase of their products. But if you had bothered to actually ASK me what my views are on Ganzo knives, instead of making an assumption and trying to cast aspersions on my character, I would have told you that I HAD owned some Ganzo knives, but I recently had a change of heart about them, and as a matter of personal conscience I chose to dismantle and dispose of them. I could have sold them, but my conscience required disposal.

However, in no way, shape, or form do I look down on, or think less of people who own or buy Ganzo knives. Like I said in my first post- I don't pass judgement on people based on what knives they buy. I can't help but wonder what kind of place Bladeforums would be if everyone shared that policy.

Oh, and I REALLY like Amazon. I shop there all the time.

 

[Seneca18]

Thank you for answering at least ONE of my questions.

That's funny, it sounds like your making excuses for Amazon. Who says they can't possibly screen all of their products? And if they don't know about the Ganzo "controversy", I'm guessing if enough people contacted Amazon and complained, that they would certainly become aware.

Funny thing about BladeHQ, they regularly ship switchblades across state lines, which is a direct violation of Federal law. So I wonder about your definition of "reputable vendors". I wonder, if vendors who sell Ganzo knives are bad for the knife industry, and the knife community/hobby, what about vendors who routinely violate Federal law?

Well see, that's where you really made a wrong turn. Nowhere in this thread did I defend Ganzo or try to justify the purchase of their products. But if you had bothered to actually ASK me what my views are on Ganzo knives, instead of making an assumption and trying to cast aspersions on my character, I would have told you that I HAD owned some Ganzo knives, but I recently had a change of heart about them, and as a matter of personal conscience I chose to dismantle and dispose of them. I could have sold them, but my conscience required disposal.

However, in no way, shape, or form do I look down on, or think less of people who own or buy Ganzo knives. Like I said in my first post- I don't pass judgement on people based on what knives they buy. I can't help but wonder what kind of place Bladeforums would be if everyone shared that policy.

Oh, and I REALLY like Amazon. I shop there all the time.

So you are morally against Ganzo knives but support the people that do purchase and use them? There's a word for that.

 

[JupiterPaladin]

Seneca - I can appreciate that you don't support Amazon which puts you into a logical standpoint. The word you're thinking of though isn't accurate as killgar is not supporting other people's choice to buy Ganzo knives, he is simply withholding on passing any judgement. Not really the same thing.
As for being "too big to possibly filter through all their products" is just a load of crap. If you are a business pulling profits from a product, you are responsible for those stocked products. No judge would ever let the biggest of retailers sell illicit drugs with the excuse "we stock so much we didn't even know it was on the shelf".

 

[killgar]

So you are morally against Ganzo knives but support the people that do purchase and use them? There's a word for that.

Nowhere did I say that I am "morally" against Ganzo.

I said in my original post (post#21) that I think it's wrong to infringe on a patent. I didn't say that it's "immoral". I think it's wrong when people drive while talking on their cell phones, but I wouldn't call it "immoral". Are you capable of comprehending how a person can draw a distinction between something they think is "wrong" and something they think is "immoral"? I've said many times on this forum that I don't apply morality to knife purchases, nor do I make moral judgements of other peoples purchases.

As far as "supporting" people who buy/own Ganzo, I didn't say that I "support" them, I said that I don't pass judgement on them or feel the need to condemn them based on my notions of right and wrong. I believe I made that point clear in post #21 as well.

Perhaps you should read what people actually post, rather than trying to put your own judgemental spin on what they post.

 

[Seneca18]

Nowhere did I say that I am "morally" against Ganzo.

I said in my original post (post#21) that I think it's wrong to infringe on a patent. I didn't say that it's "immoral". I think it's wrong when people drive while talking on their cell phones, but I wouldn't call it "immoral". Are you capable of comprehending how a person can draw a distinction between something they think is "wrong" and something they think is "immoral"? I've said many times on this forum that I don't apply morality to knife purchases, nor do I make moral judgements of other peoples purchases.

As far as "supporting" people who buy/own Ganzo, I didn't say that I "support" them, I said that I don't pass judgement on them or feel the need to condemn them based on my notions of right and wrong. I believe I made that point clear in post #21 as well.

Perhaps you should read what people actually post, rather than trying to put your own judgemental spin on what they post.

Thank you, I will try reading sometime (personal attacks?). Your conscience is an inherent knowledge of right and wrong, clearly by destroying your Ganzos you believe they are wrong. So you've made that decision of right and wrong already, not sure why you still feel the need to justify your beliefs to me lol. I'm leaving now, i've made my point and have no need to keep discussing Ganzo knives.

 

[OnceBitten]

Not an attempt to derail the Thread....but....

Some years ago, I Googled my name to see what would come up (it's good to do this, now and then).

My Amazon "Wish List" was listed prominently for anyone to see.

Well....I figured I'd go right to Amazon and add a bunch of Hog Porn, 3-foot purple dildos, and Moose Testicle ball-gags to my "Wish List" to make things interesting.
To my dismay, Amazon offered none of the three.

F*ck Amazon; they don't carry any of the good sh*t.

 

[killgar]

Your conscience is an inherent knowledge of right and wrong,

Each person defines for themselves what their conscience is, just like each person decides for themselves what right and wrong are. I regard my conscience as a "guide", and since I am a mere mortal, and an imperfect human being, and since my conscience is a part of me, I also regard my conscience as imperfect and capable of being wrong. And although my conscience is imperfect and capable of being wrong, it is all that I have to guide me through life. I do not regard my conscience as the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong on this earth, nor do I expect or require others to live according to MY conscience, and therefore I don't use my conscience as a measuring stick to judge others.

not sure why you still feel the need to justify your beliefs to me lol.

Nope, no justification has been offered. Just as I have inquired about the principles and points of view of others in this thread, I myself am more than willing to explain my principles, and my point of view. I was under the impression that I was responding to an inquiry from you. The idea of justifying my beliefs never crossed my mind. I have no problem explaining my points of view, but I NEVER feel the need to justify them to anyone.

I'm leaving now, i've made my point and have no need to keep discussing Ganzo knives.

Sorry to see you go. I enjoy a lively discussion, and I've enjoyed ours. No hard feelings on my part.

 

[Hackenslash]

Ok, there's serious fails in logic here. If you choose to extend a condemnation to Amazon as an outlet for Ganzo knives, then you need to extend that condemnation to the USPO, UPS or FedEx for delivering them. You need to extend that condemnation to the corrugated company that makes the shipping boxes. You need to extend that condemnation to the keyboards you place your orders on. The same keyboards with which you're making these senseless posts. This is such fail in logical and critical thought. Please stop, you're adding to the myth of only garbage being on the internet. . This is a path you don't want to go down. The only end is hunkered over in a cave eating beans from a can.

Do what's right, do the best you can, avoid the clearly wrong choices when buying knives(Ganzo, et. al), try your best to not hurt others and make right if you do. Stop writing volumes to justify yourselves. You have no idea how transparent you look with intricate, convoluted arguments. This is all stuff you should have figured out in kindergarten. K.I.S.S.

Some of you guys are way too...complicated.

 

[craytab]

Do what's right, do the best you can, avoid the clearly wrong choices when buying knives(Ganzo, et. al), try your best to not hurt others and make right if you do. Stop writing volumes to justify yourselves. You have no idea how transparent you look with intricate, convoluted arguments. This is all stuff you should have figured out in kindergarten. K.I.S.S.

Some of you guys are way too...complicated.

Well said.

 

[scubisino]

Oh my god! I can't believe the drama over a knife company!! They're just knives! A cutting tools, we are not talking about Picasso or Rembrandt paints! I have lionsteel knives but also a ganzo that looks almost the same as the lionsteel. Why I bought a Ganzo? Because I need a well constructed knife in my workshop, and not care about if it get lost or get covered in paint... Ganzo offered me a nice strong well made knife, with a decent steel and a solid frame lock at $18.... Lionsteel will go out of business because of me? I don't think so. There is a market for everyone, perhaps there are people out there who doesn't care to destroy an high end knife in a workshop, but I like my Lionsteel very much..... Best regards and Apologies for my poor English....

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[robgmn]

Ok, there's serious fails in logic here. If you choose to extend a condemnation to Amazon as an outlet for Ganzo knives, then you need to extend that condemnation to the USPO, UPS or FedEx for delivering them. You need to extend that condemnation to the corrugated company that makes the shipping boxes. You need to extend that condemnation to the keyboards you place your orders on. The same keyboards with which you're making these senseless posts. This is such fail in logical and critical thought. Please stop, you're adding to the myth of only garbage being on the internet. . This is a path you don't want to go down. The only end is hunkered over in a cave eating beans from a can.

Do what's right, do the best you can, avoid the clearly wrong choices when buying knives(Ganzo, et. al), try your best to not hurt others and make right if you do. Stop writing volumes to justify yourselves. You have no idea how transparent you look with intricate, convoluted arguments. This is all stuff you should have figured out in kindergarten. K.I.S.S.

Some of you guys are way too...complicated.

Where that logic fails is that you assume the USPO, UPS, Fed Ex knows what they are shipping, and that the cardboard company knows what is going in their boxes.
This would be like saying Glad (plastic baggie mfgr.) is complicit in the sale of illegal drugs, or Greyhound is complicit in the sale base don passengers who "mule" the drugs around.
Shipping companies make it clear that they won't ship illegal items. If someone wants to circumvent that (like the guy who got caught shipping hundreds of hacked DirectTV cards around), ya' can't accuse the shipping company of being at fault (unless you want them to open and inspect every package they ship).

Morality is a personal viewpoint, and no company should be expected to adhere to everyone's morality as there will always be SOMEONE who finds what they do deplorable. If they follow those guidelines, every business closes effective immediately. The SHOULD have to follow laws. If Amazon is selling a knife that violates patent law, trademark law, etc, they should prohibit that. They're big enough to control it (just like eBay is big enough to control when you try to sell a 12-round pistol mag).


No convoluted arguments, just truths and facts.

 

[Hackenslash]

Really? You're insisting to keep over-thinking this? Or is it that you just need to feel you had the last word?

Just remember. Try to UN-complicate yourself. Things fall into place quite nicely when you do. Dealing with copies, clones and fakes can be very clear and simple then. It's really NOT that complicated.

Have fun!

 

[robgmn]

Really? You're insisting to keep over-thinking this? Or is it that you just need to feel you had the last word?

Just remember. Try to UN-complicate yourself. Things fall into place quite nicely when you do. Dealing with copies, clones and fakes can be very clear and simple then. It's really NOT that complicated.

Have fun!

Intellectual discussion and debate is enjoyable to me.
I'm no philosophe, but I tend to branch out when in forum discussions (after a while, "cool knife", "I'll bet it's sharp", "does it hold an edge?", become rote).

I can understand if you don't like my posts and no longer want to discuss the subject here. You certainly have the right and the ability to not read what I type, or even to stop visiting the thread altogether if it upsets you so. I doubt anyone would think less of you for doing exactly that.

 

[killgar]

Ok, there's serious fails in logic here. If you choose to extend a condemnation to Amazon as an outlet for Ganzo knives, then you need to extend that condemnation to the USPO, UPS or FedEx for delivering them. You need to extend that condemnation to the corrugated company that makes the shipping boxes. You need to extend that condemnation to the keyboards you place your orders on. The same keyboards with which you're making these senseless posts. This is such fail in logical and critical thought. Please stop, you're adding to the myth of only garbage being on the internet. . This is a path you don't want to go down. The only end is hunkered over in a cave eating beans from a can.

Do what's right, do the best you can, avoid the clearly wrong choices when buying knives(Ganzo, et. al), try your best to not hurt others and make right if you do. Stop writing volumes to justify yourselves. You have no idea how transparent you look with intricate, convoluted arguments. This is all stuff you should have figured out in kindergarten. K.I.S.S.

Some of you guys are way too...complicated.

You've made a lot of sense in this thread, said a lot that I respect, and I've enjoyed reading your posts and have found you to be a refreshing voice of reason, but this post above does not qualify. No offense intended.

You speak of "convoluted arguments" yet you go on to compare a vendor who sells Ganzo knives to the shippers and the companies that make the boxes (and keyboards?). Frankly, an argument could not be more convoluted. And talk about "fails in logic". And some might say that in making that argument that you are trying to excuse Amazon, as if to say they play no part in the trade of Ganzo knives.

It's very simple- Amazon sells Ganzo knives, they promote Ganzo knives by permitting people to post positive reviews of Ganzo knives, if people believe that vendors who sell Ganzo knives are bad and should be boycotted, then either they extend those feelings towards Amazon, or they are hypocrites. And when people say that Amazon is no more to blame than the post office for the trade of Ganzo knives, it sounds like maybe they are trying to justify their continued patronage of a vendor who sells Ganzo knives.

You say "Do what's right", but each person decides for themselves what is "right" or "wrong". They don't need anyone on a knife forum dictating such things, nor should they be judged or mocked if their "right" is different than yours. If you had said "Do what you think is right, follow your own conscience", then I would agree.

On a different topic, if you, or anyone else, don't like where this discussion has gone, if you think the posts are "senseless", then you are free to ignore it. No one is forcing you to read this thread, much less continue posting in it. It's unfortunate that you feel the need to mock and insult other people for their desire to continue this conversation when you yourself have freely expressed your opinions here. Others have the same right to post here as you do. No one mocked or insulted you for engaging in this discussion, so perhaps you can show others the same courtesy.

You think this thread should end, and I had no desire to participate in it further, but ironically, your post brought me back (and YOU bumped it back to the top. An odd thing to do if someone wants a thread to go away). You have renewed my interest this topic, and now I'm ready to post all day again

 

[Hackenslash]

... stop visiting the thread altogether if it upsets you so. I doubt anyone would think less of you for doing exactly that.

On the contrary, I'm not upset in the least. I find your passive-aggressive posts rather amusing. I, and others, simply don't have the time to continue to raise valid issues with you that you respond to with a wall of text comprised of opinions, feels and illogical extensions. This has gone on for 19 pages and it will go on for 19 pages again and again. This is a debate that can never end when one side has a clear definition of right and wrong and the other side is willing to justify based on situational ethics. I'm not pointing fingers as to whom is who; they're both valid standpoints from which to plot one's moral compass, but rarely will they agree.

You may have your last word now .

 

[Hackenslash]

You've made a lot of sense in this thread, said a lot that I respect, and I've enjoyed reading your posts and have found you to be a refreshing voice of reason, but this post above does not qualify. No offense intended.

You speak of "convoluted arguments" yet you go on to compare a vendor who sells Ganzo knives to the shippers and the companies that make the boxes (and keyboards?). Frankly, an argument could not be more convoluted. And talk about "fails in logic". And some might say that in making that argument that you are trying to excuse Amazon, as if to say they play no part in the trade of Ganzo knives.

It's very simple- Amazon sells Ganzo knives, they promote Ganzo knives by permitting people to post positive reviews of Ganzo knives, if people believe that vendors who sell Ganzo knives are bad and should be boycotted, then either they extend those feelings towards Amazon, or they are hypocrites. And when people say that Amazon is no more to blame than the post office for the trade of Ganzo knives, it sounds like maybe they are trying to justify their continued patronage of a vendor who sells Ganzo knives.

You say "Do what's right", but each person decides for themselves what is "right" or "wrong". They don't need anyone on a knife forum dictating such things, nor should they be judged or mocked if their "right" is different than yours. If you had said "Do what you think is right, follow your own conscience", then I would agree.

On a different topic, if you, or anyone else, don't like where this discussion has gone, if you think the posts are "senseless", then you are free to ignore it. No one is forcing you to read this thread, much less continue posting in it. It's unfortunate that you feel the need to mock and insult other people for their desire to continue this conversation when you yourself have freely expressed your opinions here. Others have the same right to post here as you do. No one mocked or insulted you for engaging in this discussion, so perhaps you can show others the same courtesy.

You think this thread should end, and I had no desire to participate in it further, but ironically, your post brought me back (and YOU bumped it back to the top. An odd thing to do if someone wants a thread to go away). You have renewed my interest this topic, and now I'm ready to post all day again

Killgar, I've enjoyed this discussion too, but as I've stated above, it is rather pointless.

I'd like to clear up one thing. I'd love to see Benchmade/McHenry/Williams sue the pants off of Amazon for patent infringement but it's a complicated issue. We all know who has the most money and who could carry this out ad-nasuem to the point that only attorneys would win. We aren't privy to the legal decisions between the parties and therefor aren't in a position to pass judgement. Litigation like this could very well destroy a company like Benchmade. Just don't buy copies. That's what it comes back to. That's what it always comes back to.

Also, I've personally divested myself of Amazon over the last year for a number of reasons. I haven't bought knives on Amazon for a few years, largely due to the perceived business in copies and counterfeits. My Prime expires in 3 days and I sure as heck am going to miss my Prime Music...

 

[robgmn]

On the contrary, I'm not upset in the least. I find your passive-aggressive posts rather amusing. I, and others, simply don't have the time to continue to raise valid issues with you that you respond to with a wall of text comprised of opinions, feels and illogical extensions. This has gone on for 19 pages and it will go on for 19 pages again and again. This is a debate that can never end when one side has a clear definition of right and wrong and the other side is willing to justify based on situational ethics. I'm not pointing fingers as to whom is who; they're both valid standpoints from which to plot one's moral compass, but rarely will they agree.

You may have your last word now .

Honestly, I make an effort in threads like this to avoid any of those things, hence why I point to statute, rules, laws, international law, etc.
I don't get to say something is legal or illegal because I FEEL it to be so; anyone can crush that argument in a second.

If people want to discuss right and wrong based on opinion, they can certainly do so, but there is really no right or wrong in subjective preferences. You like what you like, you feel what you feel. Those things have no place in a discussion of whether something is legal or illegal, and whether it should be allowed or not.

Substitute another legal issue altogether (and this is purely a legal reference, not a discussion of religion/politics/health/etc.): Roe v. Wade
Roe v. Wade has made it legal for a woman to choose what happens with her pregnancy. People may not like that, they may think it's morally wrong, but they cannot stop women from doing it as it's LEGAL.
Now, some may hate that a country outside of ours does not have to follow our laws, but that's entirely too bad. Then again, we don't have to follow THEIR laws either.
I will not spend 15 years in jail for telling someone to "Eff off". My wife will not be stoned top death for not wearing a burkha.

But as I have said, someone's moral compass is their own. If they are going to follow the compass, they should do so fully. Following it when it suits them, but not following it when they don't is hypocrisy.
Sorry if it offends, but action like that meets the very definition:
hy·poc·ri·sy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.



'Nice to see we can hit 380 on a controversial subject like this without people resorting to mudslinging.