Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[Hackenslash]

(sigh)

The statement that was made was that,

Since the axis lock patent is not active in China, they are disobeying no laws.

The importer of a patented item would be the one disobeying the law.

If the importer does not import a patented item, he is disobeying no laws.

Actually, probably no problem to import, the problem arises when sold. Nobody is claiming Ganzo is breaking applicable laws, we're claiming they're pond scum and should be shunned by supporters of the hobby and members of the industry.

"Sigh" right back at ya! Why is this such a difficult concept?

 

[trevitrace]

Actually, probably no problem to import, the problem arises when sold. Nobody is claiming Ganzo is breaking applicable laws, we're claiming they're pond scum and should be shunned by supporters of the hobby and members of the industry.

"Sigh" right back at ya! Why is this such a difficult concept?

I was attempting to put something like this together but you did it much, much better than I could have. Well stated.

 

[davek14]

Actually, probably no problem to import, the problem arises when sold. Nobody is claiming Ganzo is breaking applicable laws, we're claiming they're pond scum and should be shunned by supporters of the hobby and members of the industry.

"Sigh" right back at ya! Why is this such a difficult concept?

You know what? I just brought that up for the sake of being clear but I've given this thought...

I entered this discussion asking if the axis lock patent was expired. A Google search would show that it is commonly believed that it is. After 17 pages we know it is not expired but have no idea why or for how long it will last.

I wondered if it would go on for 34 years. I would consider that immoral, although not breaking applicable laws. I also think that requiring a team of lawyers to get a clear answer on that isn't right, moral, or proper. Patent laws were made to protect innovators and inventors, not the guy with the most money to buy an idea and continually extend it's patent.

I was called a counterfeit supporter and a Ganzo lover for feeling this way by a few.

Ganzo is not breaking applicable laws, but I'm sure they know many of their knives are being imported to locations where the US patent applies. So Ganzo, although operating within the letter of the law, I would consider it to be operating immorally.

So there's that. I do think immorality abounds.

 

[Hackenslash]

You know what? I just brought that up for the sake of being clear but I've given this thought...

I entered this discussion asking if the axis lock patent was expired. A Google search would show that it is commonly believed that it is. After 17 pages we know it is not expired but have no idea why or for how long it will last.

I wondered if it would go on for 34 years. I would consider that immoral, although not breaking applicable laws. I also think that requiring a team of lawyers to get a clear answer on that isn't right, moral, or proper. Patent laws were made to protect innovators and inventors, not the guy with the most money to buy an idea and continually extend it's patent.

I was called a counterfeit supporter and a Ganzo lover for feeling this way by a few.

Ganzo is not breaking applicable laws, but I'm sure they know many of their knives are being imported to locations where the US patent applies. So Ganzo, although operating within the letter of the law, I would consider it to be operating immorally.

So there's that. I do think immorality abounds.

Sooo...after ~350 posts...do we really agree? I don't think I've called anyone a counterfeiter or immoral. If I have, please accept my apologies. I can dislike what you say on an online forum, but that gives me no basis to dislike who you may or may not be. I don't even think I dislike what you say...it looks like we basically agree.

 

[craytab]

Actually, probably no problem to import, the problem arises when sold. Nobody is claiming Ganzo is breaking applicable laws, we're claiming they're pond scum and should be shunned by supporters of the hobby and members of the industry.

"Sigh" right back at ya! Why is this such a difficult concept?

:thumbup:

 

[davek14]

Sooo...after ~350 posts...do we really agree? I don't think I've called anyone a counterfeiter or immoral. If I have, please accept my apologies. I can dislike what you say on an online forum, but that gives me no basis to dislike who you may or may not be. I don't even think I dislike what you say...it looks like we basically agree.

What do you mean agree? I buy stuff from many companies I think are behaving immorally. It's kind of hard to avoid. I own one Ganzo knife but it's a Stockman, a G725-M. (as an aside, one thread called it a Buck 371 rip off, it's a Stockman) I also did a GAW of an EL01 once.

I never have tried to support Ganzo in this thread.

I'm not going to go back through the thread yet again to pick out any quotes, but some of the labeling and veiled threats did irritate me a bit I must admit.

To summarize:

We can see from the resources we finally made public on this forum that the axis lock is still patented.

A google search of forums and such would show that this is not commonly believed.

The available info doesn't make completely clear when it does end.

I am more curious than I was about when it does end!

This does not mean I support counterfeiting.

My views:

We as consumers have a right to know when it does end. It is not a secret which we unwashed masses have no right to know without teams of lawyers and buckets of money. It is supposed to be about innovation and competition not corporate profit.

There is at least one member who uses the fact that they support the views of this forum to continually bring the subject to counterfeiting if they disagree with someone, often using that term inaccurately. If Craytab's sandwich was late at McDonald's I believe he would call them counterfeiters.

 

[killgar]

I'm talking about domestic resellers on The River and Bay Photoshopping out Axis lock.

I just now did a search on Amazon for "Ganzo", and on the first page of results there were over a dozen different models of Ganzo knives with "axis" locks. The locks were all clearly visible.

And this begs a few questions that I would be interested to get your thoughts on (as well as anyone else's)- Since Amazon USA is promoting Ganzo knives, selling Ganzo knives, and making money off the sale of Ganzo knives, does that make Amazon a despicable company? Heck, they even offer free 2 day Prime shipping. Which means Amazon has those Ganzo knives sitting in their US warehouses waiting to be shipped.

When people shop on Amazon they are giving money to a company that sells Ganzo knives. Does that make those people "bad people" for supporting a company that sells Ganzo knives?

I'd wager there are a lot of members here at Bladeforums who shop on Amazon, and who have family members who do as well. Are they "bad people" for supporting a company that sells Ganzo knives?

And it wouldn't surprise me if some of the people in this thread who are fervently anti-Ganzo shop on Amazon. Are those members being hypocrites if they say "Anyone who supports vendors who sell Ganzo are hurting the knife industry, and the knife community"?

EDIT: Ironically, I just saw an add for Amazon here on Bladeforums. You paid members can't see the adds. So it looks like Bladeforums is promoting a vendor who sells Ganzo. Ain't that ironic.

 

[sabre cat]

What do you mean agree? I buy stuff from many companies I think are behaving immorally. It's kind of hard to avoid. I own one Ganzo knife but it's a Stockman, a G725-M. (as an aside, one thread called it a Buck 371 rip off, it's a Stockman) I also did a GAW of an EL01 once.

I never have tried to support Ganzo in this thread.

I'm not going to go back through the thread yet again to pick out any quotes, but some of the labeling and veiled threats did irritate me a bit I must admit.

To summarize:

We can see from the resources we finally made public on this forum that the axis lock is still patented.

A google search of forums and such would show that this is not commonly believed.

The available info doesn't make completely clear when it does end.

I am more curious than I was about when it does end!

This does not mean I support counterfeiting.

My views:

We as consumers have a right to know when it does end. It is not a secret which we unwashed masses have no right to know without teams of lawyers and buckets of money. It is supposed to be about innovation and competition not corporate profit.

There is at least one member who uses the fact that they support the views of this forum to continually bring the subject to counterfeiting if they disagree with someone, often using that term inaccurately. If Craytab's sandwich was late at McDonald's I believe he would call them counterfeiters.

That is a pretty good job of an overview on this whole thread.



My views and opinions:

1) Counterfeiting is just wrong, period. But let me be clear as to my personal definition of counterfeit knives. Any knife made by a manufacturer that copies the design and look of knife rightfully owned by another (without permission) may be suspect, however, if it includes names, logos and model numbers of the real company that owns the knife design, it is, without question, counterfeit.

2) If it is marketed and retailed and/or sold as a genuine product when it is not, it should be considered counterfeit. No matter what packaging or markings are used.

3) Counterfeit knives should be considered harmful to the industry and the economy as a whole. People that produce and market counterfeit knives are scum and should be charged with criminal intent if possible.

4) If the knife does not fall into the above categories, it becomes a copy, clone, an imitation, and may be legal to produce, own, and/or sell depending upon laws and territorial issues. Many times, these knives are considered a gray area but, can be used as a gateway to promote our hobby.

5) Most people who own knives that are clones, copies, etc. don't know any better. They may be criminals but chances are that they are nothing more than victims of their own ignorance. Most are not thieves, they are not aiding and abetting, and should not be treated as if they are.

6) Blade Forums.com has the right to set standards for membership and usage. Those standards should include limits on counterfeit products, and may also include limitations on copies, clones, etc.

7) Forum members should have the right to suggest changes and improvements to these standards. Owner(s) of Blade Forums.com should have the right to ignore these suggestions but should consider and review all suggestions. Members should not directly or indirectly state, or imply, their opinion as forum policy.



Just my views and opinions.

 

[JupiterPaladin]

I'm interested to know why something's are ok to copy but others aren't. Every manufacturer has a lockback knife but Buck was the first. Is that acceptable? Why are there clones of the Kabar 1912 design, stockmans, Barlows, trappers, Bowie shaped blades, drop point blades, pocket clips, etc ad nauseum? Why are some companies derided as scum for borrowing a design but others are praised? Prime example is how CRK is praised for the frame lock but in reality it's just a thicker liner lock without scales. That's a clear use of altering another person's idea and only slightly at that. I know the axis lock in question may still have an active patent, but the Ganzo version is clearly an inferior copy first, and if you know guns, Sam Colt used a version of that lock to hold revolver cylinders in place and that was over a hundred years ago. Oh so they put it on a knife, but that doesn't really change that it's not all that original.
In the real world, you buy what you like. I don't know many people who want a Benchmade but buy a Ganzo because it was close enough and would be happy with that. Either you want a quality tool or an affordable to your budget tool. Getting a Sanrenmu 710 doesn't make me think that there's no point in a Sebenza. They are different markets. It's not hard to understand. If I need a $10 knife, Benchmade and CRK do not have an offering to consider so there is no way the cheap option is stealing their sales.

 

[robgmn]

I'm interested to know why something's are ok to copy but others aren't. Every manufacturer has a lockback knife but Buck was the first. Is that acceptable? Why are there clones of the Kabar 1912 design, stockmans, Barlows, trappers, Bowie shaped blades, drop point blades, pocket clips, etc ad nauseum? Why are some companies derided as scum for borrowing a design but others are praised? Prime example is how CRK is praised for the frame lock but in reality it's just a thicker liner lock without scales. That's a clear use of altering another person's idea and only slightly at that. I know the axis lock in question may still have an active patent, but the Ganzo version is clearly an inferior copy first, and if you know guns, Sam Colt used a version of that lock to hold revolver cylinders in place and that was over a hundred years ago. Oh so they put it on a knife, but that doesn't really change that it's not all that original.
In the real world, you buy what you like. I don't know many people who want a Benchmade but buy a Ganzo because it was close enough and would be happy with that. Either you want a quality tool or an affordable to your budget tool. Getting a Sanrenmu 710 doesn't make me think that there's no point in a Sebenza. They are different markets. It's not hard to understand. If I need a $10 knife, Benchmade and CRK do not have an offering to consider so there is no way the cheap option is stealing their sales.

Because people apply their morals when it best suits them, and disregard them when it best suits them.
Selective hypocrisy.

 

[Hackenslash]

Because people apply their morals when it best suits them, and disregard them when it best suits them.
Selective hypocrisy.

I'm sure that's a "thing", but it's not what's gone on in this thread. There are clear definable examples like the Ganzo Grptilian and unclear examples like multiple companies producing a "stockman". You're confusing a lack of physical clarity with a subjective moral choice. Just because someone can't offer a distinct answer to an unclear question doesn't equal moral compromise.

You're creating a straw man to justify your uncertain stance.

 

[Hackenslash]

I just now did a search on Amazon for "Ganzo", and on the first page of results there were over a dozen different models of Ganzo knives with "axis" locks. The locks were all clearly visible.

And this begs a few questions that I would be interested to get your thoughts on (as well as anyone else's)- Since Amazon USA is promoting Ganzo knives, selling Ganzo knives, and making money off the sale of Ganzo knives, does that make Amazon a despicable company? Heck, they even offer free 2 day Prime shipping. Which means Amazon has those Ganzo knives sitting in their US warehouses waiting to be shipped.

When people shop on Amazon they are giving money to a company that sells Ganzo knives. Does that make those people "bad people" for supporting a company that sells Ganzo knives?

I'd wager there are a lot of members here at Bladeforums who shop on Amazon, and who have family members who do as well. Are they "bad people" for supporting a company that sells Ganzo knives?

And it wouldn't surprise me if some of the people in this thread who are fervently anti-Ganzo shop on Amazon. Are those members being hypocrites if they say "Anyone who supports vendors who sell Ganzo are hurting the knife industry, and the knife community"?

EDIT: Ironically, I just saw an add for Amazon here on Bladeforums. You paid members can't see the adds. So it looks like Bladeforums is promoting a vendor who sells Ganzo. Ain't that ironic.

The Amazon ads come from cookies and tracking of your own browsing history. They're much more related to you than to BF.

 

[JupiterPaladin]

There are clear definable examples like the Ganzo Grptilian and unclear examples like multiple companies producing a "stockman". You're confusing a lack of physical clarity with a subjective moral choice.

To be fair, I don't see how one is clear but the other isn't. They are both clearly designs being made by manufacturers that did not design them.

 

[robgmn]

I'm sure that's a "thing", but it's not what's gone on in this thread. There are clear definable examples like the Ganzo Grptilian and unclear examples like multiple companies producing a "stockman". You're confusing a lack of physical clarity with a subjective moral choice. Just because someone can't offer a distinct answer to an unclear question doesn't equal moral compromise.

You're creating a straw man to justify your uncertain stance.

No, it's very different from a strawman argument; it's an answer to a question of
why some people get upset about an action performed by one entity but don;t get upset when that action is performed by another entity. Examples can be found in the world every day.

Pick your subject (politics, religion, relationships, education, law, you name it) and you will encounter folks who take a VERY strong stance on something when it is to their benefit (being "correct" in an argument can be a benefit), but will take an opposite stance when THAT is to their benefit.

For example: on another forum I am on, there are people who will opine all day long that our rights as protected by the BOR are INALIENABLE and can never be taken away, nor would they ever allow anyone to take them away or voluntarily give them up. Until, of course, they surrender their right to free speech the moment they join the forum.
Other folks will sit and post a million false inflammatory things about one politician or another with abandon, but if anyone points out that they are false, they cry to the moderator that they are being "picked on".

A more base example might be the young guy who would get REALLY ticked off if an old, overweight man cut in front of him to get into a parking space, but would be far less upset when the "offender" was a drop-dead gorgeous young woman. Or maybe the vehemently anti-sexuality, anti-pornography, anti-human-body public speaker who hides in his closet doing things while two young "professional women" that he has paid do "gymnastics" out in the room. How about a public speaker who who is VERY outspoken about punishing drug users and dealers, yet is addicted to prescription painkillers (obtained legally AND illegally)?

If someone takes a strong stance on something, they should hold that stance and support it all the way.
When they don't it's Selective Hypocrisy, not "a strawman".

 

[Hackenslash]

Again, and for the last time (in this thread), all decisions in this world are not based on your "selective hypocrisy". Most are made with logic and the best available information. Such is the case in most decisions concerning fakes, copies and clones. Perhaps if you tried to view the situation with less jaded contempt it wouldn't pose such a conundrum to you.

 

[Seneca18]

I just now did a search on Amazon for "Ganzo", and on the first page of results there were over a dozen different models of Ganzo knives with "axis" locks. The locks were all clearly visible.

And this begs a few questions that I would be interested to get your thoughts on (as well as anyone else's)- Since Amazon USA is promoting Ganzo knives, selling Ganzo knives, and making money off the sale of Ganzo knives, does that make Amazon a despicable company? Heck, they even offer free 2 day Prime shipping. Which means Amazon has those Ganzo knives sitting in their US warehouses waiting to be shipped.

When people shop on Amazon they are giving money to a company that sells Ganzo knives. Does that make those people "bad people" for supporting a company that sells Ganzo knives?

I'd wager there are a lot of members here at Bladeforums who shop on Amazon, and who have family members who do as well. Are they "bad people" for supporting a company that sells Ganzo knives?

And it wouldn't surprise me if some of the people in this thread who are fervently anti-Ganzo shop on Amazon. Are those members being hypocrites if they say "Anyone who supports vendors who sell Ganzo are hurting the knife industry, and the knife community"?

EDIT: Ironically, I just saw an add for Amazon here on Bladeforums. You paid members can't see the adds. So it looks like Bladeforums is promoting a vendor who sells Ganzo. Ain't that ironic.

I think that is an entirely different topic. That's like saying "well amazon has them, so it must be ok" , and that is just passing on responsibility for these bum knives. it is unfortunate that Amazon carries them because the non-knife person will buy them, but anyone who is on these forums knows better and cannot use the "well amazon has them" excuse to justify their views.

 

[JupiterPaladin]

So the buyer can still support Amazon even though you disagree with them selling Ganzo knives? Either the vendor is ethical in your eyes or not. If you give them your money while saying it's unethical, that's obvious hypocrisy. It seems like nobody can address my previous point that not all companies are judged with the same guidelines. Ganzo makes the G729 which is inspired by the PM2 with slightly different blade and handle profiles and that Axis Lock. Ok so which part is worse the look or the lock? Is the G730 being the same but with a liner lock viewed as poorly? If the look is an issue then do you also deride Buck for the Spitfire, SOG for the SOGzilla, or Benchmade for their various used of the "Spydie-Hole" which I doubt because Benchmade can do no wrong right? How about we establish universal rules that apply to everyone. Unless it's a straight up counterfeit, the quality and brand recognition sell the blade.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I'm interested to know why something's are ok to copy but others aren't. Every manufacturer has a lockback knife but Buck was the first. ...

As a matter of fact, Buck did not make the first lockback -- by several centuries.

Buck's type of lockback seems to be original, but, if patented, is now in the public domain.

 

[Danke42]

Who invented shoes? I wish to only wear shoes designed by the original patent holder.

 

[killgar]

I think that is an entirely different topic. That's like saying "well amazon has them, so it must be ok" , and that is just passing on responsibility for these bum knives. it is unfortunate that Amazon carries them because the non-knife person will buy them, but anyone who is on these forums knows better and cannot use the "well amazon has them" excuse to justify their views.

Actually my questions were exactly on topic with this thread- the morality, ethics, and "right or wrong" of making, selling, buying, and supporting the vendors who sell Ganzo knives. If people are going to preach morality, ethics, and principles on this forum, they should be prepared to have those morals, ethics, and principles challenged.

Nowhere in my post did I ask- "Is it alright to buy Ganzo knives since Amazon sells them?". My questions were as direct and clear as they could be-

1. Since Amazon sells Ganzo knives, does that make Amazon a despicable company? You didn't answer that question (nor has anyone else).

2. Are people "bad people" if they shop on Amazon, and give Amazon their money, even though they know Amazon sells Ganzo? Neither you nor anyone else answered that question either.

3. Are people being hypocrites if they say that vendors who sell Ganzo are "hurting the knife industry, and the knife community/hobby", but continue to shop on Amazon? I guess if the people who rail against Ganzo shop on Amazon, order food from Amazon, or pay to watch Amazon programs, that they wouldn't want to answer that question as well.

But that's alright. When answering a question could expose a persons hypocrisy I can understand if they wouldn't want to answer, and instead try to completely change the subject.

When people publicly proclaim the superiority of their principles, but they do not actually practice those principles throughout their daily lives, then it's not "principle", it's "posturing".