Falkniven F1 3G - Sadly disappointed

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I love my F2 in VG-10. Probably doesn't hold an edge as long as the 3G blades, but touches up quickly and stays very sharp in the field. I would bet Fallkniven takes care of the problem. Please report back as to what they say and do about it.
 
As we have no information on what the OP was doing at the time of the respective incidents of damage, I do not see how one can decide if it was technique (No offense intended.), defect in manufacturing (including overly hot grinding), or a tool inadequate by design and/or materials for whatever the job was that led to the damage.

This absence of information does not, of course, stop fans of entirely different -- some massively thicker-edged-- knives from coming forward to be . . . . fans.

A BK2 -- my BK2 for example - thickly fashioned from a steel originally developed for farm plows and harrows (BANG! That was a rock!), is the prototypical "sharpened pry bar." The F-1 rather clearly is not. Totally different classes of tools.

On the other claw, the Gerber Big Rock is made of FFG 440A at unknown hardness (Citing no source, some vendors claim it is RC 56-57). Knowing nothing else, 440A should be tougher, although showing lesser edge retention.

The outside layers of the F-1 are of relatively soft 420 stainless. I am surprised, but not shocked, that they would be marked by use with a ferro rod. I reserve my knives as back-up ferro scrapers. I will have to give it a try.

I would be disappointed too.
 
I only mentioned the ESEE 5 because the OP said he was considering the RC5 (now ESEE 5) or BK2. I wasn't sure if he new the thickness, but since he mentioned the two together, he probably does. Take care.
 
Thomas Linton said:
1.As we have no information on what the OP was doing at the time of the respective incidents of damage, I do not see how one can decide if it was technique (No offense intended.), defect in manufacturing (including overly hot grinding), or a tool inadequate by design and/or materials for whatever the job was that led to the damage.

2.This absence of information does not, of course, stop fans of entirely different -- some massively thicker-edged-- knives from coming forward to be . . . . fans.

3.A BK2 -- my BK2 for example - thickly fashioned from a steel originally developed for farm plows and harrows (BANG! That was a rock!), is the prototypical "sharpened pry bar." The F-1 rather clearly is not. Totally different classes of tools.

4.On the other claw, the Gerber Big Rock is made of FFG 440A at unknown hardness (Citing no source, some vendors claim it is RC 56-57). Knowing nothing else, 440A should be tougher, although showing lesser edge retention.

5.The outside layers of the F-1 are of relatively soft 420 stainless. I am surprised, but not shocked, that they would be marked by use with a ferro rod. I reserve my knives as back-up ferro scrapers. I will have to give it a try.

I would be disappointed too.
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1.Agreed, the best thing for the OP will be to let Fällkniven inspect the knife, in order to take the proper action regarding the cause of the damage.
I know from personal experience that Peter and Erik are fully competent in these things.

2.:):):) We are all fans of some sort, aren't we!

3.Totally agree!

4.Not everyone benefits from a steel like 3G.

5.Yes the regular VG-10 version has outerlayers of 420j2 at rc55, but the 3G version has outerlayers in VG2 at rc59 if I recall correctly.

Regards
Mikael
 
Mikael W said:
Well,let's see what Fällkniven do in Your case.
I have several 3G models from them and haven't experienced what You have.
I have used them intensively at work as a carpenter and they have seen damage to the edge.
My carbonsteel knives has more damage on the same type of impact.

I have experienced differrences in edge holding between the 3G knives and I think this can have multiple causes, that interact on performance.
It can be overheating in the final grinding.
It can be differrences in my sharpening.
It can be edgegeometry, as the factoryedges are often less durable than my own edge.

As time goes by and the knife gets used and sharpened, things seems to stabilize on a higher level of performance.
Basically it's the same with most knives I have.
There are several exceptions to this rule and also in 3G steel.
As the heat-treatments are made with protocols for every batch, any inconsistencies are probably found in the final grinding process.

Now, I'm no knifemaker,metallurgist or work in the knife buisness.
I'm a user and consumer only, so this is my own speculations about how things might be.
I guess it's a mayor issue over the entire knifeindustry and it's the consumers who pays the bill.
What to do about it I don't know, I don't even know if I'm right.

What I do know is that of all my knives I have most confidence in my Fällkniven models!
Just my 2c.


Regards
Mikael
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Hi Mikael, im glad you have not had the same experience as me, as I said in my review i wanted to love this knife and if Falkniven sort a new knife out for me then i will give it another go

Cheers

J
 
Planetcat said:
I love my F2 in VG-10. Probably doesn't hold an edge as long as the 3G blades, but touches up quickly and stays very sharp in the field. I would bet Fallkniven takes care of the problem. Please report back as to what they say and do about it.
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Will do mate ;-)
 
PropThePolecat said:
How much of the tip broke off? And what caused it?
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about 2 1/2 mm of the tip broke off, I don't know what caused it but as I said in my original post i was using it for feather sticks, battoning some small branches and striking a fire steel.

I didn't drop it or ding it on anything, and between uses it was in its sheath. It must have happened though during that time as when i inspected it the next morning in daylight i found the damage

J
 
Thomas Linton said:
1 As we have no information on what the OP was doing at the time of the respective incidents of damage, I do not see how one can decide if it was technique (No offense intended.), defect in manufacturing (including overly hot grinding), or a tool inadequate by design and/or materials for whatever the job was that led to the damage.

2 This absence of information does not, of course, stop fans of entirely different -- some massively thicker-edged-- knives from coming forward to be . . . . fans.

3 A BK2 -- my BK2 for example - thickly fashioned from a steel originally developed for farm plows and harrows (BANG! That was a rock!), is the prototypical "sharpened pry bar." The F-1 rather clearly is not. Totally different classes of tools.

4 On the other claw, the Gerber Big Rock is made of FFG 440A at unknown hardness (Citing no source, some vendors claim it is RC 56-57). Knowing nothing else, 440A should be tougher, although showing lesser edge retention.

5 The outside layers of the F-1 are of relatively soft 420 stainless. I am surprised, but not shocked, that they would be marked by use with a ferro rod. I reserve my knives as back-up ferro scrapers. I will have to give it a try.

6 I would be disappointed too.
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Hi Thomas

1 - As I said in my post I was on a camping trip in Oman using the knife to feather sticks, baton some small, dry branches and striking a fire steel. I don't think it was my technique (no offence taken) although i have been using knives for Bushcraft for the past 15 years in many different locations around the world I will say I am still learning (aren't we all ;-)
I would guess it is a manufacturing defect IMHO and I would say the F1, designed as a pilots survival knife should be up for the menial tasks I was using it for.

2 - Maybe I need a thicker blade as I like to USE my knife, I give it a run for its money so to speak but still, a survival knife should be up to at the very least what I was using it for.

3 - Definitely agree, the F1 seems a little short for some tasks but seems suited for general duties, I read somewhere the size was a well thought out assumption that a pilots knife should be small enough to carry easily on his person without it being considered a weapon.

4 - The Big Rock does need sharpening regularly

5 - The F1 3G is a SGPS core with VG2 sides, hardened to 62 HRC.

6 - trust me I am

Regards
J
 
kinskibrain said:
Sorry to hear about your bad fortune. Disappointment is never fun. I have a F1 in VG10 and have never experienced any chipping even when right out abusing it - like hacking a hole in a frozen lake to fish from. My japanese kitchen knife came with a warning label - "due to the high hardness of the knife edge, be very gentle with the edge until you have sharpened it a couple of times. The edge will then be durable and strong".

This is along the lines of what Mikael is saying. With these hard new edges it is very important to be careful until you have taken of that virgin edge. Then these knives will be extremely strong and durable. You could compare it to "breaking in" a new engine or breaking in leather boots.

High end knives with high end steels often needs to be broken in not to break.
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Hi Kinskibrain

Thats interesting info, if Falkniven replace the knife i will be sure to take your advice

Thanks

J
 
The Welshman said:
Hi Mikael, im glad you have not had the same experience as me, as I said in my review i wanted to love this knife and if Falkniven sort a new knife out for me then i will give it another go

Cheers

J
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I had a Samiknife with handforged carbonsteel blade where the annealing was forgotten.
The tip broke like glass when I tried to drill a hole in a piece of Birch.
The maker suggested I would simply regrind the tip and go from there.
I did as he said and the knife started to work well until I checked the flex of the blade with my hand.
The blade snapped like a piece of glass!

I sent the knife to the maker and he changed the blade to a new one.

If there's something wrong with the heat-treatment on Your F1, a simple test as the one above with the Birch should reveal the facts.

If You do that test don't forget the pic's!:D


Regards
Mikael
 
jdk1 said:
Sorry to hear about your problems. I have read of others having chipping issues. Accepting a "re-grind' would be a no-go for me.

The ESEE 5 is a brute. Nothing like the FK F1, I believe. On that note, the ESEE 4 would probably be closer in size, but if you want a thick blade, the ESEE 5 is truly awesome. With ESEE, replacement would be automatic without "inspection/evaluation". You just send it in and they send out another, and I can't imagine them trying to re-work a badly damaged blade. Good luck and let us know what happens.
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Hi jdk1

I love the look and the reviews of the ESEE 5, real work horse. I know from my review people are gonna think I used bad technique or using the F1 to do something it shouldn't etc. but I have a Bacho folding saw and a Gerber axe for heavy chopping, its just in my opinion a 'survival' knife should be able to take some abuse or at the very least handle the kind of tasks you require a sharp tool for in the woods

Cheers
J
 
Thanks for the excellent review. You provided a lot of details. One possibility is that your baton work banged the edge into a small knot(s). With a thin, hard edge it takes very little to do damage. Resharpening at a slightly more robust profile may solve the issue.

The knife itself is pretty good. And the steel is excellent. But everything is a trade off. I'd expect the 3G to chip more easily than 440A at a lower HRc. But it should also hold an edge much longer.

I found the F1 to be a little small for general brushwork. The S1 is a step up in size.
 
foxx said:
I've owned the RC5 and still have a BK2. Get the BK2, if using it for the outdoors. The RC5 has a thicker grind and a fatter edge, as to avoid damage when cutting through a downed aircraft. The BK2's grind starts higher, so there is less steel as the grind approaches the edge, much better for what you're trying to do with a knife.
IMO, get a small axe or hatchet, or even a machete, they can save your knife for the knife jobs. A 12" Ontario Cutlass machete is a seriously tough 1/8" thick blade. It can baton through much larger cords of wood, and won't break the bank, $25 at most. I convexed mine, and it outchops the Junglas and the KaBar Cutlass machete.
Ever consider taking a small folding saw? With my Silky, I can process way more wood with less effort and time. It's great to have the skill to do all the chores with one knife, but no one knife does everything well.
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Hi foxx

I will definitely consider the BK2.

I have a gerber axe and Bacho folding saw that I use for the heavy stuff, they work well for evrything I do but my gripe is with this whole 'survival' knife thing. To me if a manufacturer is going to call their product a survival knife and sell it for the price Falkniven sell there knives for it should be up to the task. As i said in my post I have been in a few situations on my travels where my $50 Gerber Big Rock knife performed above and beyond what was required of it. To me this makes it a survival knife (even though its a camp knife). The F1 is a great knife (I still need a new one to test it and be sure) BUT its not really a survival knife. Its a little too short for batoning duties. I just hope Falkniven send me a new one cos i really want to love this knife but until then im saving for a BK2 or an ESEE 5

Cheers
J
 
Twindog said:
Thanks for the excellent review. You provided a lot of details. One possibility is that your baton work banged the edge into a small knot(s). With a thin, hard edge it takes very little to do damage. Resharpening at a slightly more robust profile may solve the issue.

The knife itself is pretty good. And the steel is excellent. But everything is a trade off. I'd expect the 3G to chip more easily than 440A at a lower HRc. But it should also hold an edge much longer.

I found the F1 to be a little small for general brushwork. The S1 is a step up in size.
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Hi Twindog,

It is possible I hit a knot in the wood, just a shame that it would take only that to damage a pilots survival knife presuming they may at some point depend on it with their life.

I want to love this knife and hopefully Falkniven sort it out but I agree with you, although I avoid the massive knife blades the F1 seems a little small for bushcraft. I do use an axe and a Bacho folding saw in my kit depending on where im going but when a manufacturer calls out 'Survival' knife im gonna call their bluff and the F1 should be able to take some abuse IMHO

Cheers
J
 
As a metallurgist and knife user I'll repeat comments that I've made numerous times ! It is very easy to damage an edge and especially a tip from improper grinding at the factory ! Heat build up from grinding is always there and excessive heat is easy to do . I've had some good brand knives chip edge or break tips with absolutely no excessive forces. The answer is grinding damage. Regrind , best by hand and the damage should be gone.
I have a Fallkniven TK-1 and that 3G is a real super steel and it's now my principle hunting knife and I take very good care of it. My S-1 was meant as a field knife and I gave it some rough tests. One test was cutting up old carpet .I was not surprized when the softer outer layers scratched easily as old carpets .certainly mine, had things like sand which is very abrasive. The center layer held up much better.

My grinding fight has been a long one as a metallurgist .It often meant not making friends when I show the grinder the cracks he caused. I had a forman tell me I shouldn't do that as it hurts peoples feelings !!!
My response was 'talk to the customer and see who's feelings are really hurt when a part fails in use at great expense ' !!!
 
The Welshman said:
but when a manufacturer calls out 'Survival' knife im gonna call their bluff and the F1 should be able to take some abuse IMHO

Cheers
J
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I wouldn't call the Fällkniven company or the F1 a "bluff"!:grumpy:
I do have the F1 in VG-10 and it has taken everything without trouble.
My 3G TK1 and TK2 both have thinner tips than the F1 and both have intact tips and edges.

Send Your knife to Fällkniven and let them say what they will do, but don't call them a "bluff"!


Regards
Mikael
 
Agreed. Fallkniven has an excellent reputation for a reason. And I, for one, will ALWAYS give a manufacturer a chance to make a problem right before I air my dirty laundry in a public forum.
 
bld522 said:
Agreed. Fallkniven has an excellent reputation for a reason. And I, for one, will ALWAYS give a manufacturer a chance to make a problem right before I air my dirty laundry in a public forum.
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Sounds like the point he was trying to make is if it's marketed as a life or death survival knife then they had better be sure it's 100% before it leaves the door.

FWIW, I've never heard of any *real* leather that you could take in to a wading pool. Some can be water proofed to the point they will stand rain, but I definitely wouldn't take the leather in to standing water. That's usually what the synthetic sheaths are for. I would venture that the knife rusted because it was left in wet leather over night. I haven't looked in to 3G steel, but standard steel does get "consumed" by ferrocerium rods.

It is unfortunate the tip broke. I would imagine Fallkniven will do the right thing and replace the blade.
 
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