Fallkniven destruction test!!!

I'm glad the Dark Ops Raven is going to be given a chance. And Noss is right it's going to be the toughest design. I know D.O. says these knifes are made for very heavy duty use in extreme conditions. This testing is going to show the truth and I'm a big fan of what really is, not just what people say.
 
Noss, Thanks for the work your doing. I've worked in a UL certified testing lab as a tech doing destruction and cycle testing. You're free to conduct your testing as you please, and I think you're doing a pretty good job, but I do have some suggestions to improve your testing process.

The goal of every test should be to evaluate some aspect or function of the knife under test - like tip strength, edge retention, coating durability, etc. So each test should ideally be made to test a particular aspect and the test should measure that aspect with good, solid numbers. The test should reduce variables in the testing process and be repeatable for all knives.

Take tip strength for example. We need to measure how much force it takes to break the tip. You could put 0.5 inch of the tip in a clamp so the knife is parallel to the ground. Then hang a weight from the handle, increasing the weight until the tip breaks. Now you have a solid number (in lbs) and you know exactly how strong the tip is, and you can repeat this test with every knife.

For edge retention you can start by measuring the sharpness of the blade. Take some thin rope or twine, make a loop, hang it on the blade (sharp side of course) add weigh until the rope cuts. Hack through some 2x4s or a concrete block and then repeat the rope test. Again, the test can be repeated on all the knives and you have good, solid numbers to rate the knives with.

Some things, like grip comfort are purely subjective, they'll differ from person to person, so obviously these things aren't able to be accurately tested.

Thanks again and please keep up the good work.
Kevin
 
thebiggiantkevin: Thanks. Those are some good suggestions for improving the tests. Thanks. On the flex test I'm going to start using a torque wrench this was suggested by a maker. I'll have to test a few knives this way before I can say how much weight and flex a knife can take in order to get a baseline. there are always going to be variables since every knife is different. so I will never be able to get this exact.

I'm building a cutting machine to begin more in depth cutting tests. I will have to do multiple tests and get feedback on improvements before I can say okay this is the result I'm looking for.

suggestions are always good and if it's with in my finances I'll do my best to add them for improvement.

Thanks
 
Incorporating a torque wrench for measurements is a great idea. Performing measurable tests that results in a real number is key. If I had spent 3 days in the lab testing a circuit breaker, then told the engineers "I give it 3 stars" or "It's tough", I probably would have been fired on the spot :-p

I'd love to see something like... "the tip on the ka-bar broke at 85 lbs, the tip on the Dark Ops Raven broke at 135 lbs." Those results tell you something.

Before someone brings it up... I know that clamping in a vice, or using a torque wrench is not "real world" use - but the real world is too full of variables. Stabbing a board and twisting is real world. But very little can be gained from that test. The wood will have inconsistencies, the stab depth will vary, etc. You spend time and money and only end up with a broken knife and a vague idea of strength.

It is possible to perform good testing without using expensive, precisely calibrated, scientific equipment. You don't need a lab coat and a degree from MIT. Simple, measurable, repeatable tests are all ya need.

Thanks again Noss. I was considering a ka-bar heavy bowie, and after watching your tests I've decided to buy one.
Kevin
 
I like to test my own knives because they need not cost enough to withstand conditions that I would never expose my knives to. If they need to be tougher than a Ontario Spec Plus then I don't need them or wish to pay for them. Jusy my own standard of course, I don't care what others may want to pay for a knife.
 
A suggestion for a coating test? When I was an automotive factory process engineer we had a knife that held five blades like utility knife blades mounted so that the tips are about 1/16" apart. The coating is scored completely through in two directions overlapping to form a tic-tac-toe of cuts, and a strong adhesive tape is burnished across the cuts, then pulled to see if it lifts any coating.

Another coating test is a film build test which measures the thickness of the coating. This one is beyond your capabilities because it requires an expensive machine.

A salt water corrosion test tank would be an easy project. Salt water equal in saturation to sea water is heated slightly in an enclosure and time to significant corrosion is noted.

The idea of using a digital torque wrench for stress failure tests is a great one and should be pretty accurate.

Yeah, keep up the testing. Comparitive destructive testing tells a lot about a knife. Or just about any manufactured product.

Codger :thumbup:
 
oldrifleman said:
Sorry, but I agree with TKC. Other than amusement, and I do agree that watching a grown man in a mask stab a poor defensless chair is kind of fun, it does not really prove anything. When was tha last time you were attacked by a chair, when was the last time you trimmed a concrete block with a knife? I can kill any knife ever made, no problem, but what does that prove other than that breaking things can be fun???? Steven
Click to expand...

doing it urself is alot of fun too :D
Altho, yeah, next time i get all knife mad at home and attack furniture ima put on a gas mask, heheh :p
DSCN2707.jpg
 
damn ur gonna destroy that browning!? :eek:

i want one like those, i'd rather have u send it to me instead :D

anyway havent been to ur site lately, ever tested a rat-5?
 
thebiggiantkevin: I'll see what I can rig up. For some better testing and give some numbered data. On some areas of testing like the flex test it is more appropriate to have numbered data and I fully agree with this. On the other parts of the tests I use a thrash and bash method to get the point across that the knife is tough or not this type of thing everyone can duplicate and I like just doing it with my hands and not some special setup or a machine.

The K-Bar heavy bowie is a good knife. It's worth much more then it's 50 dollar price tag. I love the handle on it. It's nice and big and comfortable for long extended copping sessions. I bought 2 more after I did the test but I gave them away to my family members for camping trips. I need to get another one.

udtjim: testing knives yourself is fantastic. You test what a knife needs to do for you and that is all you need.

Codger_64: Good idea on the coating test this one I can do do the knife at the beginning without damaging the knife before I begin the destruction test.

What would you say would be a good amount of time to leave the knives in a heated salt bath. ?

I'm going to hook a camera up to the torque wrench and do a split screen on the video so everyone can see the knife flex and clearly see the reading on the wrench.

nephildevil: You killed the chair with the RAT. The saying about when are you going to get attacked by folding chairs is valid. people got attacked
by folding chairs on the Geraldo Rivera show every week. :D

The browning is a looker it's going to be the best looking knife so far. I'm going to field test it first before it gets put thorough the knife grinder. I was going out this week but I go hung up with work. I plan to do a chopping shootout this weekend with it first.
No I haven't tested a RAT-5 yet. Just the RTACII

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I do appreciate them and will do my best it implement them in the tests. Just please give me a little time to get it all together.
 
Nimravus Nut said:
The destruction test of Fallkniven A1 is finally completed by Noss.:D

A1 is definitely ranked #1 on my collection of survival knives. The test is awesome, I didn't know laminated stainless can be this tough. Go to Knifetests.com to check it out.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Noss did a great job on this, as for all his tests.
Click to expand...

How does one do a bad job of destroying a knife?
 
noss4 said:
Professor: Thanks

me2: Yes like Troop said it ha a full convex grind it starts at the spine and continues all the way to the edge. If you haven't seen the video on the browning site yet check it out. 1085 is a good tough steel it should do well.
http://www.browning.com/products/flash/knives.asp

tholiver: I have been looking at the Fallkniven Thor I'll have to wait a while on it because of the price. I am getting ready to test a Mora Clipper. I'm taking it out into the filed this week with the Browning. I'm going to work the Mora hard and see what I can do with it. If it comes back in one piece. I do plan to do a lightweight destruction test on it. No steel hammers just wood or plastic. All the field testing this time around will be on Video.

Troop: Glad to hear you like the Browning. I can't wait to get out there
and chop and split wood with it. No need to send monthly payments but thanks for the thought but I won't stop you if you do :D A few have donated some money and a few knives for testing. The Mora the Gerber LMFII the CS kukri Machete and CS SRK Carbon V were all donated for testing by a member of the knife community. All these test are coming up. Thanks bro :)
Click to expand...

Noss: I appreciate what you do for all of us. Paypal donation comin' your way. :thumbup:
- Thanks again.
 
EdgeOn said:
How does one do a bad job of destroying a knife?
Click to expand...
If your goal is simply to destroy a knife - then do it however you want. As long as the knife ends up destroyed then you've done a good job. If you're testing strength, durability, etc to the point of failure (destruction) without following standard test methods, not collecting relevant data, and not drawing any conclusions - thats a bad job of destroying a knife. If anyone is interested I recommend checking out the wikipedia articles on Experiments and Test Method.

Noss: About the salt water testing, it probably won't need to be heated, although it will speed up the rusting a bit. I'd recommend stripping all the oil off the knives with mineral spirits before the test to eliminate that variable. I tested the rust prevention of several gun oils and documented it here. It may be of some use if you decide to do the salt water testing.

I think you're doing a good job testing (not just destroying) the knives. You have a pretty consistent testing procedure that gauges many of the common failure modes in real life usage. But (as I said before) I think the tests could be improved by reducing variables, measuring the points of failure and collecting empirical data that can be used to compare knives and derive conclusions about the knives. Thanks for listening to, and considering my (and other people's) recommendations. I think theres a lot of potential in your testing. Keep it up man!
 
Noss: Just keep doin' it the way your doin' it. Screw all that Mumbo-Jumbo. When I'm up in Alaska, when my ass is on the line, in a survival-type situation, and I need to beat on my knives to make shelter, etc, I'm not going to be caring about Scientific Notation at that point!
I understand your tests perfect just the way you're doing them. :thumbup:
 
thebiggiantkevin: Good tip for striping the blades of any oils. Thanks
There is always room for improvement and I have improved the tests based on many suggestions I have received since I started. I am no scientist so I can't get into mathematical statistics and theories. I see some of this on the net but for me it just doesn't tell me much. I want to know if a knife can survive chopping concrete and being hammered through steel. For me this tells me if a knife is up to some serious challenges. I'm impressed that some of these knives are as tough as they are. My destruction tests do not concentrate on cutting or chopping performance. I do some of this in my other tests like the chopping shootouts. I do believe the destruction tests show how tough and strong they are. So my tests are different but they are filling a gap because there is no one else doing them at least for the public to see in mass quantity's in one place. I just test them the down and dirty way video tape them and say their you go.


Troop: Thanks Bro. I received your donation that was a very generous amount my friend. I appreciate it very much and it will be a huge help to me. :) Thanks man your the best. :thumbup::thumbup:

You make a great point about being in the field. I have felt the same way. A person doesn't have a scale hooked up to their arm at least I don't. People are not going to be able to gauge how much force in a numbered result they are putting on a knife during use or "I can only hit the knives with a pipe X number of times" a person does what they have to do to get the job done. I do believe I need to add some more measurable data to the flex test for example and this is where I will start with the torque wrench set up.
 
Troop said:
Noss: Just keep doin' it the way your doin' it. Screw all that Mumbo-Jumbo. When I'm up in Alaska, when my ass is on the line, in a survival-type situation, and I need to beat on my knives to make shelter, etc, I'm not going to be caring about Scientific Notation at that point!
I understand your tests perfect just the way you're doing them. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Troop: You're right, at that point it's too late to worry about Scientific Notation. At that point if your knife fails you die. And thats exactly why I read as many reviews, do as much research and look over as many specifications as I can before I decide to trust my life to a knife. So which knife is best at hacking a branch to build my shelter and fire? Which will open my 32nd can of beans without breaking a tip? Which knife can I drop on a rock and not have it chip out? Which knife can pry open... whatever. Well theres only one way to know for sure, but it involves that "Mumbo-Jumbo" testing. Unless you want to field test the knives in Alaska for us, but thats a hard way to find out that knife X sucks.

Noss: Your testing could be called crude and unscientific, but ya know, knives are not sophisticated things. They were not meant to be used under strictly controlled conditions. In fact the beauty of the knife it it's simplicity and toughness. It's meant to be used under all conditions - on mountains, in boats, deserts, jungles, in rain, sun, snow, for fun and for survival. Theres no need to hook up the knives to computers with lasers and sensors. And despite the almost complete lack of science in the tests - I still think their great tests. I can watch the videos and say "Yes, that knife will get my job done." So I completely understand the reluctance by some people to take a more scientific approach. In fact, it would really suck all the kick @zz coolness out of the tests. But I still think the tests can be tweaked a little without getting totally geeked out and melting peoples brains.
 
EdgeOn said:
How does one do a bad job of destroying a knife?
Click to expand...

loosing a digit or getting a testing object into your body.;)

Good thing Noss always wear protective clothing and mask.

Keep up the good work Noss.:thumbup:

By the way Noss, do u need another A1? I'll gladly send you mine.
 
The mask was a dead giveaway, the man is not well. And therefor I cannot take the test seriously.
 
thebiggiantkevin said:
Troop: You're right, at that point it's too late to worry about Scientific Notation. At that point if your knife fails you die. And thats exactly why I read as many reviews, do as much research and look over as many specifications as I can before I decide to trust my life to a knife. So which knife is best at hacking a branch to build my shelter and fire? Which will open my 32nd can of beans without breaking a tip? Which knife can I drop on a rock and not have it chip out? Which knife can pry open... whatever. Well theres only one way to know for sure, but it involves that "Mumbo-Jumbo" testing. Unless you want to field test the knives in Alaska for us, but thats a hard way to find out that knife X sucks.

Noss: Your testing could be called crude and unscientific, but ya know, knives are not sophisticated things. They were not meant to be used under strictly controlled conditions. In fact the beauty of the knife it it's simplicity and toughness. It's meant to be used under all conditions - on mountains, in boats, deserts, jungles, in rain, sun, snow, for fun and for survival. Theres no need to hook up the knives to computers with lasers and sensors. And despite the almost complete lack of science in the tests - I still think their great tests. I can watch the videos and say "Yes, that knife will get my job done." So I completely understand the reluctance by some people to take a more scientific approach. In fact, it would really suck all the kick @zz coolness out of the tests. But I still think the tests can be tweaked a little without getting totally geeked out and melting peoples brains.
Click to expand...

Hey, you may be on to something...."Survivor Knife-Man!" :D But, I get to have an Inuit female companion lug all my camera gear around. :cool:
No, but seriously, Kevin...your point is well taken. I guess a little scientific Mumbo Jumbo might provide a little more accuracy to the tests and might make them more definitive and conclusive. But, I personally do get all the info I need about a knife when I see Noss doing the tests the way he's doing it.
 
thebiggiantkevin: Thanks for all your comments and suggestions it has been a big help to me. I always like hearing suggestions for improving the tests. I value the community input greatly as long as its not done in a hateful way. This helps everyone and myself understand the tests better. I do listen. Like I said I'll start with the torque wrench set up during the flex test I built the holder last night and will begin using in on the next tests. I only have a beam type torque wrench at the moment. I'll buy a digital one a little later for a more precise reading.


Nimravus Nut: I would love to have another A1 It's a great knife. It's a great size knife to take on my night time hikes through the woods. This is cool
of you to offer me your A1. Email me and we can work out the details. Please don't part with it if you are using it or need it. Thanks my friend. :) The mask
has been great protection against the concrete chopping. It rains all over the shop.


lorise Some don't have a sense of humor but this is okay I guess. Everyone is different.

Troop: If I can get one of those Bowflex bodied women to carry all the camera gear I'm in for a long trek into wilderness for a week or two. :) maybe three :D Thanks again for the donation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top