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Fasting, Starvation, & Survival
- Thread starter Evolute
- Start date
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- Apr 14, 2008
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- 1,810
I usually eat one meal per day around 1pm. Feel fine but those that eat say it would be better to just eat frequent small meals. I sit down and feed till full and I do fine. I am 180 and walk constantly at the hospital for 12 hour shifts. I seem to do fine. I wonder if I am conditioned to it because in my childhood I grew up in Northern New Mexico very primitive. We didn't have a anyway to keep food cold and just ate beans. Surprised we didn't have a garden. I don't pay much attention to food. My body seems to know what it wants and needs. Loosearrow
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- Jun 29, 2007
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- 4,698
I have a "progressive" friend who fasts for spiritual reasons
He seems to like it and says it helps his body
He just drinks carrot juice or something like that
I can't stand being hungry
My friends says that the first day is the hardest with the growling stomach
I only fast at the end of the month when all my bills are due
I'm the master of the 10 Top Ramen packs for a dollar cuisine.....
He seems to like it and says it helps his body
He just drinks carrot juice or something like that
I can't stand being hungry
My friends says that the first day is the hardest with the growling stomach
I only fast at the end of the month when all my bills are due
I'm the master of the 10 Top Ramen packs for a dollar cuisine.....
on_the_edge
Gold Member
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- Jan 31, 2006
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- 11,839
While your body can usually sustain itself for a surprisingly long time without food or with very little caloric intake, what you did is not something people should try unless they have no other choice. In fact, I do think it is dangerous, and I am sure you are not advocating that anyone here do this just to see what they themselves can tolerate, correct?
I am glad you made it through and appear to be ok, but please folks, do not take this lightly.
Someone asked what the term is when your body "feeds on itself". I think the term they are thinking of is catabolism, or when your body enters a catabolic state. That's not really a good thing, but it's not the worst of what could happen either.
I am glad you made it through and appear to be ok, but please folks, do not take this lightly.
Someone asked what the term is when your body "feeds on itself". I think the term they are thinking of is catabolism, or when your body enters a catabolic state. That's not really a good thing, but it's not the worst of what could happen either.
Before I throw out my forage kits I would like to be insight of a 7-11 . IMHO if you are taping at muscle mass and your time is extended beyond the ability of that lean body mass to sustain you , your situation goes fubar. When you are weak as a kitten you will not have the ability to hunt, fish, forage or escape danger or get to help.
Myself I could stand a good fasting but in a controled inviroment not where the options are few and poor fron the start.
Myself I could stand a good fasting but in a controled inviroment not where the options are few and poor fron the start.
That's right. Of course, I am not advocating that people stop eating for two months, which is obviously not healthy.
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- May 5, 2006
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- 1,265
From Wiki:
"Benefits include a reduced risk of cancer, the slowing of the aging process and the potential to increase maximum life span[17]. Currently, the reduction of caloric intake is the only proven method of increasing the lifespan of an organism[2]"
I'm impressed by your fasting - and a little curious as to why you did it...
But I'd also like to know if you experienced the "high" that usually goes with severe caloric restriction. Did you experience a change of mood and/or euphoria?
From NY mag article:
"From mystics to anorexics, people who go for long periods without eating often report feeling more awake and energetic, even euphoric."
Anyways, thanks for posting your experience - good reminder to try a limited fasting regimen :thumbup:
"Benefits include a reduced risk of cancer, the slowing of the aging process and the potential to increase maximum life span[17]. Currently, the reduction of caloric intake is the only proven method of increasing the lifespan of an organism[2]"
I'm impressed by your fasting - and a little curious as to why you did it...
But I'd also like to know if you experienced the "high" that usually goes with severe caloric restriction. Did you experience a change of mood and/or euphoria?
From NY mag article:
"From mystics to anorexics, people who go for long periods without eating often report feeling more awake and energetic, even euphoric."
Anyways, thanks for posting your experience - good reminder to try a limited fasting regimen :thumbup:
You are correct there can be short and long term effects of starvation.
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthato...questURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/starvation.jsp
I don't know why the OP did what he did but it really does need a good justification to risk such damage to the body. I'm sure it will take months if not years to fully recover.
Look up "resveratrol". Also, look up "glycation".
To repeat myself, more emphatically:
No, I did not experience any "high" from severe caloric restriction. However, there were certainly circumstances which impeded that, so my case be exceptional.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2007
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- 9,786
A couple of points (from somebody who teaches human physiology). Even though Evolute was fasting for a long time, if we was supplementing his diet with a small ~ 100 calories of carbohydrates on a regular basis, this could have been sufficient to counteract some of the severe chronic fasting impacts the he might have otherwise experienced. Here is my attempt at an explaination.
The above stems from the fact that the brain and nervous system can only utilize glucose or ketone bodies as a fuel sources. Your body stores only a marginal amount of carbohydrate in the form of glycogen. Most people only have about 300 g of glycogen stored in liver and muscle that can sustain body functioning for about 15 h. Glycogen catabolism products are glucose. Glucose can be manufactured through the catabolism of protein, breaking it down to amino acids and conversion of amino acids to glucose. This is not that energy efficient because of the losses in chemical potential associated with the variety of synthetic steps.
The other form of energy that the brain can use is derived from ketone bodies. Ketone bodies are manufactured from fatty acids, a breakdown product of fat. The rest of your body can use most forms of energy - circulating glucose, circulating fatty acids, amino acids or ketone bodies for energy.
Under low blood glucose concentrations, the brain gets first dibs at circulating glucose and ketone bodies and the tissues mainly use fatty acids and amino acids to satisfy their reserves. In fact the presence of ketone bodies tends to be inhibitory of protein catabolism. This is the bodies way of saying - okay, I'm in starvation mode but I have a lot of fat and its better for me to use my fat reserves and conserve my protein.
So the first stages of starvation go as follows. For the first day or so, the pancreatic hormone glucagon (the antagonist of insulin) signals the body to release breakdown its glycogen stores. After a day or so your body will have blown through its limited carbohydrate reserves. At that point, glucagon mediated effects are mainly the upregulation of lipid catabolism, liberating free fatty acids to satisfy energy needs of most of the body and manufacture of ketone bodies to feed the brain.
One consequence of chronic ketone body accumulation is blood acidosis. The same kind of thing happens in chronic diabetes for a different reason. Blood acidosis can lead to system shut down as many proteins operate over a really narrow pH range - system shut down includes blindness, cardiac arrest, loss of nervous system control, coma, i.e. bad stuff. The ketone body acidosis can work in concert with other factors that reduce the pH of blood. For example, having heavy reliance of ketone bodies and engaging in heavy physical activity can precipitate this effect from the dumping of lactic acid into blood and thus reducing blood pH in an additive fashion to the ketone bodies themselves. Breath heavily into a paper bag (hyperventillation) and you will buildup CO2 reducing blood buffering capacity and again you are toast if you have a high build up of ketone bodies circulating in your blood.
People who go hog wild onto severe carbohydrate reduced (i.e. no carbohydrate consumption) also sometimes experience blood acidosis mediated by ketone body build up.
So - why does a tiny amount of food, e.g 100 calories per day etc. as indicated by Evolute help?
Basically, if that 100 calories a day is coming from carbohydrates, then this is relieving and perhaps wholly or at least partly satisfying the small amount of energy required by the brain and nervous system. If you were to satisfy most of the brains energy needs, then the body is not frantically generating keytone bodies, rather the lipid breakdown is shunted to lest harmful fatty acids which can feed the rest of the body tissues.
In this way - you will loose your fat pretty fast - because it is satisfying the larger caloric demands imposed by your body. You will also loose protein mass faster than somebody on a complete starvation routine, because you won't be producing those ketone bodies that act to inhibit protein catabolism.
So Evolute - you did manage to skirt trouble - at least so far as avoiding the worst metabolic waste products related to starvation and thankfully you started eating before you drained too much of your body reserve. To counteract your OP - I would say that a successful kit would capitalize on these lessons. It might still be worth while to pack a small quantity of glucose - as many of us do to include such things as hard candies or sugar packets. (perhaps you are confident enough on your plant lore like Doc Canada to get starches by foraging).
You don't need pack/forage enough of this stuff to sustain your whole body needs, but having about 100 calories per day of sugar or starch can help you sustain a very long period of starvation and maximize the use of your own stored fat reserves while avoiding metabolic consequences of doing this.
P.s. I don't recommend you try this.....and sorry for such a long winded post...
The above stems from the fact that the brain and nervous system can only utilize glucose or ketone bodies as a fuel sources. Your body stores only a marginal amount of carbohydrate in the form of glycogen. Most people only have about 300 g of glycogen stored in liver and muscle that can sustain body functioning for about 15 h. Glycogen catabolism products are glucose. Glucose can be manufactured through the catabolism of protein, breaking it down to amino acids and conversion of amino acids to glucose. This is not that energy efficient because of the losses in chemical potential associated with the variety of synthetic steps.
The other form of energy that the brain can use is derived from ketone bodies. Ketone bodies are manufactured from fatty acids, a breakdown product of fat. The rest of your body can use most forms of energy - circulating glucose, circulating fatty acids, amino acids or ketone bodies for energy.
Under low blood glucose concentrations, the brain gets first dibs at circulating glucose and ketone bodies and the tissues mainly use fatty acids and amino acids to satisfy their reserves. In fact the presence of ketone bodies tends to be inhibitory of protein catabolism. This is the bodies way of saying - okay, I'm in starvation mode but I have a lot of fat and its better for me to use my fat reserves and conserve my protein.
So the first stages of starvation go as follows. For the first day or so, the pancreatic hormone glucagon (the antagonist of insulin) signals the body to release breakdown its glycogen stores. After a day or so your body will have blown through its limited carbohydrate reserves. At that point, glucagon mediated effects are mainly the upregulation of lipid catabolism, liberating free fatty acids to satisfy energy needs of most of the body and manufacture of ketone bodies to feed the brain.
One consequence of chronic ketone body accumulation is blood acidosis. The same kind of thing happens in chronic diabetes for a different reason. Blood acidosis can lead to system shut down as many proteins operate over a really narrow pH range - system shut down includes blindness, cardiac arrest, loss of nervous system control, coma, i.e. bad stuff. The ketone body acidosis can work in concert with other factors that reduce the pH of blood. For example, having heavy reliance of ketone bodies and engaging in heavy physical activity can precipitate this effect from the dumping of lactic acid into blood and thus reducing blood pH in an additive fashion to the ketone bodies themselves. Breath heavily into a paper bag (hyperventillation) and you will buildup CO2 reducing blood buffering capacity and again you are toast if you have a high build up of ketone bodies circulating in your blood.
People who go hog wild onto severe carbohydrate reduced (i.e. no carbohydrate consumption) also sometimes experience blood acidosis mediated by ketone body build up.
So - why does a tiny amount of food, e.g 100 calories per day etc. as indicated by Evolute help?
Basically, if that 100 calories a day is coming from carbohydrates, then this is relieving and perhaps wholly or at least partly satisfying the small amount of energy required by the brain and nervous system. If you were to satisfy most of the brains energy needs, then the body is not frantically generating keytone bodies, rather the lipid breakdown is shunted to lest harmful fatty acids which can feed the rest of the body tissues.
In this way - you will loose your fat pretty fast - because it is satisfying the larger caloric demands imposed by your body. You will also loose protein mass faster than somebody on a complete starvation routine, because you won't be producing those ketone bodies that act to inhibit protein catabolism.
So Evolute - you did manage to skirt trouble - at least so far as avoiding the worst metabolic waste products related to starvation and thankfully you started eating before you drained too much of your body reserve. To counteract your OP - I would say that a successful kit would capitalize on these lessons. It might still be worth while to pack a small quantity of glucose - as many of us do to include such things as hard candies or sugar packets. (perhaps you are confident enough on your plant lore like Doc Canada to get starches by foraging).
You don't need pack/forage enough of this stuff to sustain your whole body needs, but having about 100 calories per day of sugar or starch can help you sustain a very long period of starvation and maximize the use of your own stored fat reserves while avoiding metabolic consequences of doing this.
P.s. I don't recommend you try this.....and sorry for such a long winded post...
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,021
kgd,
Thank you for the explanation. There's no reason to apologize.
Just to be clear, as I said above, for the first 5 weeks, I ate nothing whatsoever. Nothing. Not 100 calories a day... nothing.
And when I started eating a bit, again, it was not carefully regimented. There was never a period where I was carefully eating an even 100 calories per day (and there were still plenty of days of eating nothing at all), and never a period where it was carefully chosen to be primarily carbohydrates.
Thank you for the explanation. There's no reason to apologize.
Just to be clear, as I said above, for the first 5 weeks, I ate nothing whatsoever. Nothing. Not 100 calories a day... nothing.
And when I started eating a bit, again, it was not carefully regimented. There was never a period where I was carefully eating an even 100 calories per day (and there were still plenty of days of eating nothing at all), and never a period where it was carefully chosen to be primarily carbohydrates.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2003
- Messages
- 1,461
- did you have any addictions (food or otherwise) before you started?
- any headaches or other symptoms in those first five weeks, even minor (I know you said no issues, but had to ask)?
- how long did you go without a bowel movement?
- what was the first thing you ate after the five weeks and what size was the portion?
- How long before you had a bowel movement after you started eating again?
- did you drink anything else besides water in those first five weeks?
- I agree with you regarding the importance of food in a short-term survival scenario. Had you been living primitive in the colder months of a temperate climate, how long do you think you could have gone? 1.5 weeks maybe?
Thanks for sharing your very personal experience.
- any headaches or other symptoms in those first five weeks, even minor (I know you said no issues, but had to ask)?
- how long did you go without a bowel movement?
- what was the first thing you ate after the five weeks and what size was the portion?
- How long before you had a bowel movement after you started eating again?
- did you drink anything else besides water in those first five weeks?
- I agree with you regarding the importance of food in a short-term survival scenario. Had you been living primitive in the colder months of a temperate climate, how long do you think you could have gone? 1.5 weeks maybe?
Thanks for sharing your very personal experience.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
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- 13,182
There was a really great article on food deprivation in Bushcraft UK a while back. Was really interesting.:thumbup:
I've answered you questions in red, above.
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- Nov 14, 2005
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- 11,135
Evolute, im glad you have bounced back. I enjoy your posts, and pics, and for whatever the reason you did it, im glad your ok.
This has been a great thread!
This has been a great thread!
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- Apr 15, 2002
- Messages
- 3,380
Regardless of his reasons, the effects on his body, and the safety issues associated with voluntary fasting, Evolute's experience can offer good insight into what the effects of involuntary fasting are. This can inspire confidence in a way that can be beneficial in a survival situation, i.e. an answer to the questions "what would I do if...?" or "would I be able to survive without food?"
I don't get into the woods often, I am a mariner, and when I commercial fished, the threat of a survival situation at sea was iminent daily. I always wondered what I would do in a situation such as a sinking or a fire. I was given the opportunity to find out during a sudden fire and a situation of taking on water. Thankfully we were inshore and there were three coast guard boats within a mile, one with a dewatering pump aboard. We had survival suits on (I found out in that situation that I could get into one fully clothed on a cluttered deck in just about 45 seconds.), we did not panic (the biggest killer in a survival at sea situation), and I had been trained in offshore survival nine or so months before.
Experiences like this, involuntary fasting, a near miss, a hiking or climbing accident, all educate us to what our limits are, and go beyond training or practice in a survival situation. I am confident that if I experience a sinking at sea I will be able to handle myself as a survivor and not a victim, and Evolute's story is one more testament to what the human body can tolerate. An anecdote like this should inspire confidence in a survivor that they CAN live with little to no food for an extended period of time.
Thats what I got from his experience. YMMV.
pete
I don't get into the woods often, I am a mariner, and when I commercial fished, the threat of a survival situation at sea was iminent daily. I always wondered what I would do in a situation such as a sinking or a fire. I was given the opportunity to find out during a sudden fire and a situation of taking on water. Thankfully we were inshore and there were three coast guard boats within a mile, one with a dewatering pump aboard. We had survival suits on (I found out in that situation that I could get into one fully clothed on a cluttered deck in just about 45 seconds.), we did not panic (the biggest killer in a survival at sea situation), and I had been trained in offshore survival nine or so months before.
Experiences like this, involuntary fasting, a near miss, a hiking or climbing accident, all educate us to what our limits are, and go beyond training or practice in a survival situation. I am confident that if I experience a sinking at sea I will be able to handle myself as a survivor and not a victim, and Evolute's story is one more testament to what the human body can tolerate. An anecdote like this should inspire confidence in a survivor that they CAN live with little to no food for an extended period of time.
Thats what I got from his experience. YMMV.
pete