Fiddleback Forge 1/8 or 3mm O-1 Tool Steel with Convex Grind,Photos & Discussion

[Joe Duder]

Scandi bushfinger in the flea market!!!

 

[McVeyMac]

Since you're experimenting, try zeroing out your micro bevel, basically turn it into a full convex. I've found that a full convex requires a lot less maintenance and is less likely to roll and chip. I've heard that the micro bevel is easier to touch up in the field, but I think they're about the same.

I hear you Joe, and I get it. I'm a stubborn sort, and I am not about to just throw away the years of investment that I have put into freehand sharpening with stones. Sharpening a convex edge on a stone is possible, but I have not fully perfected the technique to my satisfaction in terms of obtainable sharpness. Taking a sandpaper route with mouse pad is intriguing to me. Using this method allows one to pay attention to the primary grind and remove some metal from it at each sharpening, hence maintaining a proper cutting geometry throughout the life of the blade. This will allow you to go to a "zero" grind as you call it. But this is a whole other skill set that I will have to develop and experiment with until I get the results that I want in terms of sharpness and strength. So my initial experimentation was to put a fairly acute V edge on it and test it. Obviously 15DPS is too acute for this usage and steel. I have some 5/32" knives in 3V and M390 where a 15DPS holds up very well for the same kinds of uses.

I now have another Recluse knife that I got from a member here. So I might do some experimenting with sand paper and a mouse pad (if I can find one) to do side by side comparisons of a zero grind versus a V grind. When it comes to sharpness, I am pretty picky, and I just do not have the experience with the sandpaper method yet. These convex bevel vs. V bevel discussions can soon degrade into a P!$$ing contest, as the parameters are rarely well defined. As Mist eluded to I can define a scenario where the V bevel is stronger than the convex bevel, but the convex bevel will cut better due to less metal behind the cutting edge. As an example, I can create a convex bevel on a Wicked Edge or an Edge Pro by sharpening at 17 DPS at the apex, then 16DPS, then 15DPS and even 14DPS making equal width facets along the blade. Then I can strop the bevel removing the edges of the facets, making a smooth flowing convex bevel to the apex. I can then take another knife of the exact same design and dimensions and sharpen a full V edge at 17DPS. So approaching the apex of the bevel, both bevels will be near 17DPS and will feel (and be) equally sharp. However, the V bevel will be stronger because it has more steel behind the edge compared to the convex bevel. On the other hand, the convex bevel will cut better precisely because there is less steel behind the bevel. Conversely I can make a V bevel at 14DPS all the way to the apex. This knife will feel considerably (and be considerably) sharper than the convex bevel that I defined above. It will cut better than the convex bevel, but it will be much weaker than the convex bevel precisely because it has less steel behind the edge. So finding the right level of bevel acuteness with the intended usage considering the steel in question is really what I am looking to accomplish here.

 

[awestib]

Thanks mistwalker for the thread. Nice pictures - nice knife !!
My favourite Fiddleback is the Arete so far. I have a 5/32, not tapered, and I did reprofile it into a zero convex. It's holding up very well and the geometry of the bevel/apex is excellent, particularly for feather sticks, shavings etc.

My question: How do you feel is the handle compared to the Arete?

Thanks !!

 

[NoFair]

I usually grind of the shoulder on all my knives to smooth out the transition from the micro to the main bevel. This gradually turns into a zero convex. I find this improves cutting performance without affecting the strength of the edge noticeably.
If I sharpen in the field I usually use a Spyderco Double stuff stone and get a bit of a micro bevel, but I don't mind.

 

[Mistwalker]

Sharpening a convex edge on a stone is possible...

For me it comes as a natural side effect of using a small stone sharpening by hand in the field, over time the V edge will become more and more cnvexed. It only stays a V grind if I use a bench stone.

Thanks mistwalker for the thread. Nice pictures - nice knife !!
My favourite Fiddleback is the Arete so far. I have a 5/32, not tapered, and I did reprofile it into a zero convex. It's holding up very well and the geometry of the bevel/apex is excellent, particularly for feather sticks, shavings etc.

My question: How do you feel is the handle compared to the Arete?

Thanks !!

Thanks Andy, glad you enjoyed the post! I want a 5/32 (but tapered) KE Bushie and Kephart very badly some day to try both.

I do love the handle of this knife, but have never done more with an Arete but hold one at Blade. I love the feel of it too though...

 

[Mistwalker]

A few shots of truncating. There will be more about this later on, it was not just for the sake of doing it to test, there was a task at hand. And yes, the knife is fine and doing well

 

[xxwjtxx]

Great developing thread mist -- I've been working on truncating myself, but any tips / pointers on proper technique would go a long way. Of note, I have also been using 1/8" stock to do this, with 100% success..

 

[McVeyMac]

I second what Will has stated, great thread. I also have no problems with thumping (batoning) on 1/8 stock blades that are in this size range if done carefully to not place too much lateral force on the blade. To me the key is to not use the knife to pry with if the two cuts do not meet or are pretty far apart, and secondly, I would not use 1/8" stock on a long blade (> 6") and expect to split a 5" or greater length of seasoned wood by batoning it through at the tip, especially if knots are present. The challenge that we all have is that the reader comes from their own sets of background and experience. I cannot tell you how many times my father warned me not to tighten a 1/4', or 3/8" or even a 5/8' bolt too much (he never taught me how to use a torque wrench), but I still never fully got a feeling for it until I snapped off at least one of each size by over tightening them.

The reader should also be aware that in your technique photographs, you are doing this on green wood. The same technique would be used for seasoned wood, but smaller bites would probably be required.

By the way Mist, thank you for the comparison pictures above regarding both ends of the spindle. That really helps this reader to visualize the difference between the two ends.

 

[Mistwalker]

Great developing thread mist -- I've been working on truncating myself, but any tips / pointers on proper technique would go a long way. Of note, I have also been using 1/8" stock to do this, with 100% success..

Thanks man. Yeah, for this type of cutting, truncating, I prefer thinner blades. It takes more force to drive a thicker blade as far per time, and is better if you just apply more patience and the same amount of force. It doesn't take having to really beat on a knife to do this, and the knife will live longer if you don't. That way you notice quicker if you hit a hard spot, and can move over some. In these cuts I wasn't exactly waling on the knife, it just looks that way due to using a relatively green baton as well, cut from the same tree top. The bark skinned up really easily striking the 1/8" spine The tree top by the way has been down for a few weeks now, but is still relatively green.

I second what Will has stated, great thread. I also have no problems with thumping (batoning) on 1/8 stock blades that are in this size range if done carefully to not place too much lateral force on the blade. To me the key is to not use the knife to pry with if the two cuts do not meet or are pretty far apart, and secondly, I would not use 1/8" stock on a long blade (> 6") and expect to split a 5" or greater length of seasoned wood by batoning it through at the tip, especially if knots are present. The challenge that we all have is that the reader comes from their own sets of background and experience. I cannot tell you how many times my father warned me not to tighten a 1/4', or 3/8" or even a 5/8' bolt too much (he never taught me how to use a torque wrench), but I still never fully got a feeling for it until I snapped off at least one of each size by over tightening them.

The reader should also be aware that in your technique photographs, you are doing this on green wood. The same technique would be used for seasoned wood, but smaller bites would probably be required.

By the way Mist, thank you for the comparison pictures above regarding both ends of the spindle. That really helps this reader to visualize the difference between the two ends.

Thanks Mac. I have no problems batonning any well made knife, including folders if done right. I have done this more than once. I also would never baton anything 5 or 6 inches in diameter unless I am just doing "above-and-beyond" testing. I've never had a call as of yet to baton anything larger than three inches in diameter, though I have done it just to see where a blade actually stood vs extremes.

Yes, definitely a huge difference between green and seasoned wood, as far as how hard to hit, and prying any large pieces would be a bad idea, I pry smaller pieces all the time with no problem.

You're quite welcome, and actually, this bring me to the more that will be talked about later...

When I did the tasks for the first part of this thread, they were more than adequate for both testing the knife, and for presenting a case for keeping your knife sharp. However, there is apparently more interest in the skill presented than I expected in all honesty. I have been thinking about that a lot. While they were more than adequate for their intended purpose initially, unfortunately they are not done as I would do if actually teaching this skill to a student. Niether the photos, nor the exact materials used. Though it would work for someone experienced at the technique, there are some things; spindle length, wood diameter, wood hardness, etc, that would make it more difficult for a person to actually learn the skill from.

Sooo, everything you see the knife as doing in the first series of pics has been re-done, plus some other things, with more and better detailed photos. While the text part on the blog post is accurate, I felt I could do a better job with the photos and such to actually teach this. So, I will edit the new photos in, and then there may be more than three parts total to the "Keep It Sharp" blog post on Andy's website.

The new set up when finished, looks like this, and yes the KE Bushie is still doing very well. The larger diameter material is for two reasons; A) it would be much harder to work with with gloved hands, and allows for a longer spindle, which to me is easier to control. Also, it makes it easier to see the deatils, so seeing which end is which is easy.

 

[Joe Duder]

Thanks for doing this Brian. Ever thought of doing a book? With your pictures and easy to read and understand directions, it would make for a nice camp book. I'd buy a handful anyway. Or do you have one already and once again Duder is out of the loop?

 

[Mistwalker]

Thanks for doing this Brian. Ever thought of doing a book? With your pictures and easy to read and understand directions, it would make for a nice camp book. I'd buy a handful anyway. Or do you have one already and once again Duder is out of the loop?

Thanks man, I have been published in a couple of books that were collaborative works with other people, but I have been working on a couple of my own for a while now. Maybe it will happen in the near future

 

[McVeyMac]

Hey Mist, best case scenario, I try to have a Bic lighter, worst case scenario, I try to have a fire steel. I get your point about the purpose of the piece was to have a sharp knife to do these things. But I was intrigued with your friction fire methodology, and I got sucked in. As I read, I came to realize that in the worst case scenario, I may not have a fire steel. Your method was making good sense to me. I was able to follow exactly your method with the text and pictures in the blog, with this one exception (spindle). Now I am perfectly educated with the design of your intended tools.

 

[Mistwalker]

Hey Mist, best case scenario, I try to have a Bic lighter, worst case scenario, I try to have a fire steel. I get your point about the purpose of the piece was to have a sharp knife to do these things. But I was intrigued with your friction fire methodology, and I got sucked in. As I read, I came to realize that in the worst case scenario, I may not have a fire steel. Your method was making good sense to me. I was able to follow exactly your method with the text and pictures in the blog, with this one exception (spindle). Now I am perfectly educated with the design of your intended tools.

I always have at least one lighter and one ferro rod on me, and will add a lighter, a larger ferro rod, and a match safe when I head to the woods. But I have had things go wrong before... I am still thinking on how many parts it will take to do this properly on the blog. I'm thinking 3 and maybe 4. The spindle is actually a very critical part

 

[McVeyMac]

I always have at least one lighter and one ferro rod on me, and will add a lighter, a larger ferro rod, and a match safe when I head to the woods. But I have had things go wrong before... I am still thinking on how many parts it will take to do this properly on the blog. I'm thinking 3 and maybe 4. The spindle is actually a very critical part

I am reluctant to say "I'll let you know how it works out for me" as I'm confident that, in total, there is a lot of technique involved in success that goes well beyond properly constructed tools. But technique alone will not overcome improperly constructed tools for the task. And from this standpoint, I'm confident that I can move forward and give it a try. Thanks again for sharing this life saving information.

 

[Mistwalker]

I am reluctant to say "I'll let you know how it works out for me" as I'm confident that, in total, there is a lot of technique involved in success that goes well beyond properly constructed tools. But technique alone will not overcome improperly constructed tools for the task. And from this standpoint, I'm confident that I can move forward and give it a try. Thanks again for sharing this life saving information.

As far as technique goes, initially it's the same as with a traditional notched hearth board, more pressure and slower speed at first so the friction creates the dust. Then once the smoke starts back off the pressure a little and increase speed to heat the spindle tip to 800F to turn the dust into embers. When the technique really changes is when it is time to transfer the coals to the tinder nest. Then you use a sharpened twig to loosen the coal from the trough.