Fighting windmills(or the futility of fighting my issues)......

[RogerP]

Bob - is the reason you find it not as much your cuppa tea because you see less critical discussion and more pervasive ego-stroking? Or some other reason?

Roger

 

[RogerP]

Again, this is a judgement call based on the perceptions of individuals. Whether or not they choose to participate is their decision, sometimes sadly so, sometimes gratefully so. One needs to understand the no matter how great their opinion or expertise is, that there will always be those whom disagree or feel they know better. A person needs to participate objectively without regard to ego to purposefully get the point across.

Lets not take this thread into the realm of personal attacks, please.

I agree it's a judgment call based on individual perception. When one individual presumes to speak for many, I don't see it as a personal attack to inquire as to the basis for that. If you do, please enlighten me as to why.

Roger

 

[Karda]

I agree it's a judgment call based on individual perception. When one individual presumes to speak for many, I don't see it as a personal attack to inquire as to the basis for that. If you do, please enlighten me as to why.

Roger

As stated in my previous post. Carefully chosen words and courtesy should be the norm, whether we disgree or agree.
We are all resonsible for what we read, just as we are for what we post. If another chooses to speak for others, they should take into account that if those people wished their perceptions to be given their own weight they must be posted personally. If they choose not to participate then their opinion should be only given the weight that second hand information deserves, which is also an individual perception.

 

[jjtjr]

Roger,

Kevin starts his post by agreeing with you.

Originally Posted by Kevin Jones
That's an excellent point.
Many of the partisipants who have the most to offer and most "hands-on" knife experence are leaving or have greatly cut back their activity because (as STeven) they don't like the direction this forum is going

.

You then say:

STeven has spoken for himself. So has Peter. Which of the un-named "many participants" do you presume to speak for Kevin, when you make sweeping statements about generalized dissastisfaction with the direction this forum is going?

Roger

and

I agree it's a judgment call based on individual perception. When one individual presumes to speak for many, I don't see it as a personal attack to inquire as to the basis for that. If you do, please enlighten me as to why.

Roger

I know that you don't agree with much that Kevin says, but he has the right to his opinion as do we all. He is not speaking for many, just himself.

Maybe personal attacks on the Forum are turning some people off.

This thread should be trying to get STeven to stay on the Forum, not attacking others.

Jim Treacy

 

[RogerP]

He is not speaking for many, just himself.

Wrong.

That's an excellent point.
Many of the partisipants who have the most to offer and most "hands-on" knife experence are leaving or have greatly cut back their activity because (as STeven) they don't like the direction this forum is going.

Kevin is clearly saying that MANY participants have left / reduced participation because they don't like the direction in which the forum is going. I don't really know how that could be read any differently. If that isn't speaking for many, I don't know what is.

And if you saw a personal attack, please be good enough to point out where. I suggest you are letting your own perceptions cloud the issue here Jim.

Thanks,

Roger

 

[betzner]

Bob - is the reason you find it not as much your cuppa tea because you see less critical discussion and more pervasive ego-stroking? Or some other reason?

Roger

Ahhh, whether to enumerate or obfuscate, that is the question.

But seriously, I think I'll just continue more with my viewing rather than my posting, particularly when it comes to acquisitions not meant for the viewing of others.

Bob

 

[RogerP]

As stated in my previous post. Carefully chosen words and courtesy should be the norm, whether we disgree or agree.
We are all resonsible for what we read, just as we are for what we post. If another chooses to speak for others, they should take into account that if those people wished their perceptions to be given their own weight they must be posted personally. If they choose not to participate then their opinion should be only given the weight that second hand information deserves, which is also an individual perception.

No argument with any of that. I'm happy to go with " If another chooses to speak for others, they should take into account that if those people wished their perceptions to be given their own weight they must be posted personally. If they choose not to participate then their opinion should be only given the weight that second hand information deserves, which is also an individual perception."

Ahhh, whether to enumerate or obfuscate, that is the question.

Obfuscation is not something I would expect of you Bob - you're a straight shooter. Declining to enumerate - that's perfectly fine.

Roger

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

Had a long conversation with my dear friend Coop today,

Hey, Coop is supposed to be busy turning the knives I sent him earlier this week into pictorial masterpieces. Please do not distract him any further.

I’m not making some big exit……just realizing what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen…and not wishing to play along. Have fun kids….feel free to post something of great value or some useless drivel as you see fit, here or anywhere else.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Not sure how to take the statement that you are not making a big exit. Does that mean you are not exiting at all, or does it mean that you are exiting, but you are just not making a grandiose exit? I hope it is the former rather than the latter.

The strangest thing was reading this post of yours and finding to my shock that I share almost all of the same general opinions about knives that you do - and have expressed some of them here and elsewhere. Especially miniature knives (but to avoid hurt feelings I generally just keep quiet about that). But the thing is that even though I agree with your general statements almost verbatim, I do find that often our opinions on a particular knife are different. So at a minimum, I selfishly hope that you will keep posting here and elsewhere so I can learn how you apply those general principles to evaluating specific knives as I really believe that will inform and educate me - and benefit me substantially. Yes, I am a selfish prick.

 

[jjtjr]

Originally Posted by jjtjr
He is not speaking for many, just himself.
Wrong.


Originally Posted by Kevin Jones
That's an excellent point.
Many of the partisipants who have the most to offer and most "hands-on" knife experence are leaving or have greatly cut back their activity because (as STeven) they don't like the direction this forum is going.

Kevin is clearly saying that MANY participants have left / reduced participation because they don't like the direction in which the forum is going. I don't really know how that could be read any differently. If that isn't speaking for many, I don't know what is.

And if you saw a personal attack, please be good enough to point out where. I suggest you are letting your own perceptions cloud the issue here Jim.

Thanks,

Roger

Roger,

How am I wrong?

This is what he said:

That's an excellent point.
Many of the partisipants who have the most to offer and most "hands-on" knife experence are leaving or have greatly cut back their activity because (as STeven) they don't like the direction this forum is going

That statement is his opinion. He has the right to state his opinion as do you and anyone else. He is not speaking for others any more than you are in your posts. You don't have to agree with him or me.

My perceptions are that you don't like Kevin. Any of us who have been on this forum for a long time know that you do not get along with Kevin. If he said the sun is shining, you would respond that it is dark out.

Jim

 

[rick c]

Steven,

I will be posting pictures soon of some Loveless style knives. I will be applying for membership in the Knifemakers Guild.I look forward to your comments.We will disagree on some points and that will great.

Best Regards Rick

 

[RogerP]

Jim - do you perceive a difference between these two statements:

1) I don't like the fact that this forum has moved away from critical discussion and into a group ego-stroking experience.
2) Many people are leaving this forum because they don't like the fact that that it has moved away from critical discussion and into a group ego-stroking experience.

The first is an expression of personal opinion. The second attributes that opinion to "many" others, thus presuming to speak for them. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

And as for your comments on my perception of Kevin, the fact that you see that issue in such one-sided terms is hardly surprising to me.

My perceptions are that you don't like Kevin. Any of us who have been on this forum for a long time know that you do not get along with Kevin. If he said the sun is shining, you would respond that it is dark out.
Jim

That sounds more like a personal attack to me than anything I have read in the thread thus far. One that I fully expect to be tolerated, if not endorsed.

Roger

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

When one individual presumes to speak for many, I don't see it as a personal attack to inquire as to the basis for that. If you do, please enlighten me as to why.

Roger

It depends on how and why one makes the inquiry. Is it a geniune request for information? Or is there some accusatory ("gotcha!") objective?

IMO, your post displayed hints of the latter, and I have highlighted them in your post below.

STeven has spoken for himself. So has Peter. Which of the un-named "many participants" do you presume to speak for Kevin, when you make sweeping statements about generalized dissastisfaction with the direction this forum is going?

Roger

 

[JParanee]

Guys please it's X Mas and all I want to see is the best Bowie thread please don't Fight

All of you I respect greatly so I do not want to tell you guys your business but what has happened here is simple Jim posted some work up that STeven thought was not his cup of tea really was not mine either. Steven vocalized his opinion in return he offended Jim who Steven cares for very much . Steven takes friendship very seriously and is extremely loyal so now instead of taking the chance of offending people he likes he is willing to bow out

This is nonsense Steven publicly and privately tells me my taste sucks we both laugh at it and it's all good

Personal attacks are one thing but to comment on someone's tastes is what forums are for

Please everyone stop wearing your hearts on your sleaves we are talking about knives not our kids

 

[RogerP]

It depends on how and why one makes the inquiry. Is it a geniune request for information? Or is there some accusatory ("gotcha!") objective?

IMO, your post displayed hints of the latter, and I have highlighted them in your post below.

You are free to read into it what you like, but he did "presume" to speak for others, and the generalization regarding forum dissatisfaction was "sweeping". If you find the use of those terms to be highy incendiary, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Roger

 

[Calhoon]

"Not sure how to take the statement that you are not making a big exit. Does that mean you are not exiting at all, or does it mean that you are exiting, but you are just not making a grandiose exit? I hope it is the former rather than the latter."

Yes so true! Exactly... let's get a clarification from STeven. There's a lot of drama going on here... perhaps for little reason!

I've been collecting custom knives from a little earlier than when STeven began. My collecting and appreciation has evolved over the years. It's been the past few years though that have really refined my knowledge in customs. That is solely from reading postings and discussing finer points with individual collectors and eminent knife makers themselves. This forum frankly blows my mind! Take a look at the people that drop by and show their master works. I am awe struck and dumb founded! I have easily learnt more, as I refine my collection, in the past say 3-4 years than I have in the previous 20 years. STeven has vast knowledge and it is really good of him to share that knowledge with all. I think he has learnt a huge lesson this year, from what he has said himself and from what I have seen and read right here, and that's really good for him. It is better to be supple and bend to the wind than ridged and break.... Anyway I very much appreciate these forums and thanks to all who have guided me to where I now am.... with a drawers full of incredible knives clamoring for my attention!

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

You are free to read into it what you like, but he did "presume" to speak for others, and the generalization regarding forum dissatisfaction was "sweeping". If you find the use of those term to be highy incendiary, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Roger

I think I am reading into it, as you put it, what most or nearly everyone else here would read into it. And yes, that is just an unsubstantiated opinion - I did not conduct a poll here so I cannot identofy anyone else who might agree with that. But I still know that I am correct.

IMO your post would be perceived very differently if it had said something like:

"If you don't believe it will betray any confidences, do you mind saying who some of these other folks are who have stopped posting here due to generalized dissastisfaction with the direction this forum is going? TIA!"

But you already know in your own heart why you made that post the way you did and what you hoped to accomplish. I don't really need to debate that with you, do I?

 

[Karda]

As i see it, the subject of changing norms in the collection of custom knives isnt the problem in this forum.
As with all things in life, changes happen...things evolve. Some can change with them, others feel uncomfortable about change and choose not to participate. AFAIK, this is the "custom" knife forum and any knife that is truly custom can be posted here no matter the style or materials used.

For the record, As the product i involve myself with is individually handcrafted making them "custom" in their own right, i could be posting them in here. I choose not to and i'll tell you why.
First.. Because i'm in the Manufacturers forum and have a place to post these without creating clutter in other forums.
Second... for the most part i find some of the supposedly knowledgable people in this forum to be arrogant, opinionated and condescending, (Sometimes all three at once) to the point that i (and i assume others) would not choose to participate here. Then there comes into play the bickering between posters whom should be acting in an adult manner and acting with the courtesy and forethought that they expect to be afforded them in the same circumstances.

This is my perception and opinion and it may not necessarily jive with others'

Esav, often says it quite clearly and simply: "Discuss the topic, not each other".

 

[RogerP]

I've been collecting custom knives from a little earlier than when STeven began. My collecting and appreciation has evolved over the years. It's been the past few years though that have really refined my knowledge in customs. That is solely from reading postings and discussing finer points with individual collectors and eminent knife makers themselves. This forum frankly blows my mind! Take a look at the people that drop by and show their master works. I am awe struck and dumb founded! I have easily learnt more, as I refine my collection, in the past say 3-4 years than I have in the previous 20 years.

I'm glad you find value here Cal - so do I. I have learned a TREMENDOUS amount from my fellow forumites over the years (STeven most definitely included), and continue to do so.

Roger

 

[betzner]

Joe, I think part of what I see, your post got it right about using the forum to express thoughts on others' tastes. I think Bagwells suck and others love Bagwells. I think Ericksons and Warenskis are Godly creations, while many regard them as overly bejeweled, perhaps.

This is expression, but doesn't get nasty. I try and keep my mouth shut about the negative - hey Joe, no offense, Bagwells are A-1 fighters, just not my cuppa tea, but you know that!

Bob

 

[RogerP]

I think I am reading into it,....

I'm with you up to that point.

Roger