Final hand rubbing woes

I think you guys all do this but did not mention it. Store your sand paper in grits and not all mixed up together and keep the used stuff away form the new, this will keep the paper from picking up stray bits before it even hits the steel.
Cheers Ron.
 
Thanks for all the extra tips, and I may be about to learn something new here...I thought leather or anything other than a hard, flat backing during sanding was 'evil' and would wipe out the grind lines, etc.???

I suspect part of my problem is due to my newbie grinding which results in bevels that are not perfectly flat to begin with. I spend hours at 240 grit (and sometimes lower) just getting some of the belt scratches out and probably getting it flatter in the process. I definitely do not feel as if I'm rushing either, I have probably been sanding this blade for 6 hours (including some time at the beginning on a palm sander, which also helps a little with the flatness problem and the deep grinder scratches) and I'm only at 320x.

panchO, I look forward to posting some pics if I could ever get one done for a change!
 
P J 234 said:
Thanks for all the extra tips, and I may be about to learn something new here...I thought leather or anything other than a hard, flat backing during sanding was 'evil' and would wipe out the grind lines, etc.???

I suspect part of my problem is due to my newbie grinding which results in bevels that are not perfectly flat to begin with. I spend hours at 240 grit (and sometimes lower) just getting some of the belt scratches out and probably getting it flatter in the process. I definitely do not feel as if I'm rushing either, I have probably been sanding this blade for 6 hours (including some time at the beginning on a palm sander, which also helps a little with the flatness problem and the deep grinder scratches) and I'm only at 320x.

panchO, I look forward to posting some pics if I could ever get one done for a change!
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As long as your back at it my friend.:thumbup:
 
silver_pilate said:
Then, I usually back up a grit for a few passes to finish it off. After it's completely done, it's immediately taped up well with painters tape and flipped over to finish the other side.

--nathan
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I find this to be very helpful. If I am finishing to 600 grit, I will take it up to 800 or 1000 and then just do a few passes with dry and fresh 600 to get a uniform scratch pattern. This helps a lot, but I still have plenty of problems getting a perfect finish.

-Mike
 
Mungo Park said:
I think you guys all do this but did not mention it. Store your sand paper in grits and not all mixed up together and keep the used stuff away form the new, this will keep the paper from picking up stray bits before it even hits the steel.
Cheers Ron.
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Good advice, Ron. I imagine I am guilty of mixing stacks of different grits at times on my bench.
 
I discovered early on that hand sanding is a GREAT incentive to improve your grinding :D.

Leather backing can somewhat wash out your grind lines. Something to be aware of. My blades are almost all full flat grinds, so it's not something I can advise you on.

Take all of these comments and advise and you can develop your own techniques that work for you. The results are the prize you're searching for. As long as you're getting to the desired finish, how you get there can be varied. Looking at how others have done it just helps shorten the learning curve a bit. Your own style, equipment, and skill will help in shaping your own techniques.

--nathan
 
Yes, I think improving the grinding skills would be a big help, not to mention helping me in the sanity department!

Do the final finish/fish hooks get any better (or worse) at higher grit finishes? I've been lately stopping at 320 or 400 for two reasons: one is that I like the appearance, but also due to the amount of time it takes me to get that far. If things get easier at the higher grits, however, stopping earlier might be a case of 'false economy.'

Thanks again to all for the great advice.
 
To me things go relatively more quickly after 400 grit. The first and second grits really tend to be the most time consuming. The first grit has to remove often-times deep 60 or 70 grit marks that weren't fully ground out during the rough grinding. That takes time no matter what (and it's one reason I sand to 400 prior to heat treating...softer steel sands more easily). The second grit has to smooth out what was left from what is typically a rough to low medium grit paper. After 400, the scratches really aren't that deep and you can work your way up.

To get a fast finish, you can start overlapping grits in the same direction (typically parallel to the blade) from whenever you'd like instead of altering the direction of scratch lines. This works well for working satin finishes and in stainless steels. Keep in mind that deeper, un-removed scratches in high carbon steels can speed up the process of rusting. Altering directions is a great way to see if you've really removed all the previous marks, and it takes the extra amount of time. For a nicely finished knife, I think it is very important. For a working finish, it may be overkill.

Having that high quality foundation from the first couple of grits really speeds up the entire process. Spend some extra time with that second grit to really get things nice, and the process speeds up a good bit.

--nathan
 
BTW, I usually grind to as smooth a 400 grit finish as I can, and I start hand sanding at 320. From there it's 400, 600, 800, 1000, etc. I rarely sand below 320 (maybe occasionally at 220 for really stubborn scratches), as it leaves deep scratches, and the deeper the scratch, the more time it takes to work it out.

--nathan
 
my final grits are done with a thin rubber backer under the paper, single pass, that means changing paper to fresh spot every pass. fixed a lot of the problems you described. quit using lube 2 years ago except on grits above 1000, and even then the final passes still had to be dry
 
scottickes said:
To keep grit and junk from messing up the opposite side, I completely finish out one side only. Then I clean everything up, and then tape the finished side up. This way, nothing can ruin the finished side while I hand sand the other side. When I'm hand sanding the first side, it doesn't matter if a little grit puts minor scratches on the other side, as I haven't started hand sanding it yet anyhow.
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Scott, that's great info. So easy even a caveman could have thought of it. Now why didn't I think of it. :jerkit: Until recently I never had a desire to finish to the higher grits, and when I started hand finishing to 400 and higher I was always getting scratches on the "board side". Tape is gotta be the ticket. Thanks :thumbup:
 
Thanks again for all the help. I definitely need to improve my grinding skills for some of these ideas to help me, but some of the other things I can benefit from now.

Once again, I appreciate everyone's advice.
 
Paul, the only thing I can add is, if your bevels aren't as flat as you'd like them, draw-file them before sanding to help level them out. Coat the blade with Sharpie or lay-out dye, so you can see where the low spots are as you file. BE GENTLE because aggressive draw-filing can leave deep scratches. But it's a lot faster than sanding. Remember to card your file every couple of passes to keep it clean. Clogged files make nasty scratches that are hard to remove.

As Nathan says, if you take the time to get the first couple of grits nice, the following ones go pretty quickly. All the other tips folks have posted are great, too. I've been thinking of a small file-folder type thing for my sandpaper; that would be better than the shipping box they're in now :o
 
Thanks James,

I haven't tried much draw filing since my first blade which was all filed by hand, and I had some trouble with it; it's kinda left a bad aftertaste in my mouth since. I will experiment with that on my next one and see how it goes.
 
I have a flat block 2" x !0" with a piece of leather glued to it . I clamp the block to the work bench with the paper tacked down over it . I then draw the knife from plunge to tip over that . It is so much easier drawing the knife over the paper than the paper over the knife and I get to use a full sheet of paper . When the 1st - 2" x 8 1/2 section is worn you just pull over a new 2" section .
 
I got this piece of advice from Dr. Jim Lucie. Go one grit higher than your finished grit snading the same way as the final finish. When you do the final scratch pattern get a hard rubber block...I use one of the 3M sanding blocks. Tear off a strip of sandpaper and wrap it around the block. Stick the corner of the block right up against the plunge cut and drag is straight down the length of the blade just using the corner of the block. Scoot the paper down so you have a fresh section and repeat. 10-15 strokes will get you where your need to be unless you mess up and get a wiggle. I have also discovered that anytime you go above 600 grit, the task becomes much more difficult and even 600 is trickier than you would think compared to 400. When doing a 400 grit, I come off of the 220 grit belt on the grinder and do 180( the coarsest grit you can use without having to sand for two days to get the scratches out) lengthwise, 220 crosswise, 320 lengthwise, 400 crosswise, 600 lengthwise and then back to 400 dry paper for the final finish. For 600, I go lengthwise with 600 and 1000 and then come back to dry 600. Going crosswise on any grit above 400-600 is not easy, because it is really difficult to get those crosswise scratches using really fine paper like 1000 or 2000.
 
ONeill said:
I have a flat block 2" x !0" with a piece of leather glued to it . I clamp the block to the work bench with the paper tacked down over it . I then draw the knife from plunge to tip over that . It is so much easier drawing the knife over the paper than the paper over the knife and I get to use a full sheet of paper . When the 1st - 2" x 8 1/2 section is worn you just pull over a new 2" section .
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That sounds like the technique I just saw a day or two ago on a YouTube video by J. Neilson. I haven't given it a try yet but now might be the right time...thanks!
 
jdm61 said:
I got this piece of advice from Dr. Jim Lucie. Go one grit higher than your finished grit snading the same way as the final finish. When you do the final scratch pattern get a hard rubber block...I use one of the 3M sanding blocks. Tear off a strip of sandpaper and wrap it around the block. Stick the corner of the block right up against the plunge cut and drag is straight down the length of the blade just using the corner of the block. Scoot the paper down so you have a fresh section and repeat. 10-15 strokes will get you where your need to be unless you mess up and get a wiggle. I have also discovered that anytime you go above 600 grit, the task becomes much more difficult and even 600 is trickier than you would think compared to 400. When doing a 400 grit, I come off of the 220 grit belt on the grinder and do 180( the coarsest grit you can use without having to sand for two days to get the scratches out) lengthwise, 220 crosswise, 320 lengthwise, 400 crosswise, 600 lengthwise and then back to 400 dry paper for the final finish. For 600, I go lengthwise with 600 and 1000 and then come back to dry 600. Going crosswise on any grit above 400-600 is not easy, because it is really difficult to get those crosswise scratches using really fine paper like 1000 or 2000.
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stephanfowler said:
yea, I do nothing but straight line pulls from 600 up.
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Thanks for these tips, I haven't gone past 600 on a blade yet but this should save me some heartache when I do. I just pulled out the last blade that I sanded to 600x to compare with the one I've been working on now, and it looks much better than this one at 320x and I know I spent a lot less time working the final single direction strokes.

Of course, this could be for a lot of different reasons so I'm not sure what it tells me at this point!
 
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