Finish changing from ball bearing pivot to bronze washer.

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This is a very simple job for a knife smith, but this is my first time. So I have to do a lot of thinking and planning.

I bought 4 cheap knives($13ea) that looks to be very robust for a 3” blade and for the weight. The blades come very sharp on all 4, no accident on this. Sharper than my Cold Steel and many of the Steel Will knives. It's the sharpest out of the box out of over 2 dozen of knives of different brands. Also, I compare the hardness of the blade by hitting the spine of two different blade to see the size of the dent. I do NOT believe they will heat treat only the edge of the blade and not the spine. Most likely for small folding knives, they heat treat as one piece(if they even heat treat).



Good thing is even it has ball bearings pivot, they did not thin out the blade or the liner to fit the bearings, so there's no weak point at the pivot. The spine side of the blade is of full thickness to about 3/4" from the tip that make it strong and harder to break when use for prying. Also another thing I like this knife is the flipper tap is very long, it serve as good protection of the hand when thrusting into a hard object. This is the internal picture of the knife.

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From the internal picture of the knife, you can see the distance from pivot point to the edge of the liner lock distance is 0.49" as shown, which, is longer distance than a lot of knives particular only 3" blade. This make the liner lock more secure and stronger. I want to change the ball bearings to bronze washer to make the knife tougher.
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Problem with this knife is the blade stop has diameter 0.1” on both ends to fit into the liner as shown, the middle is 0.116” as shown above. So replacing with bronze washer would make the distance between the liners at the pivot point thinner than the blade stop pin as seen in the picture below, the pivot and blade stop pin is very close(0.6” apart) as shown, this make the distance between the liners uneven and the blade is wobbling sideway no matter what. I have to replace the blade stop pin. I chose a straight pin with 0.116” diameter dowel pin. I have to drill the hole on both liner plates a little bigger to accommodate the new pin.

It's quite an effort to drill. I step increased the drill size to step up to 0.116" in 2 steps to make it easier to drill through each step. IT WORKED. . I can feel the hardness of the liner when I try bending the liner lock out more to give it more a secured lock, together with how hard to drill, I conclude the steel of the liner is very good. Broke a few cobalt drill bits in the process.

The dowel fitted very snug, I use 1 bronze washer on each side of the blade with one at 0.01" and one 0.02". The original ball bearings were 0.03" thick each side. I literally took out 0.03" to make the linings much closer to the blade. The finished knife is smooth in opening, no side way movement of the blade. Everything is tight just like when the knife first came with bearings. It is a success.
 
The easier and IMHO better approach would have been to use pb washers equal to the width of the bearings and otherwise not modify the knife. There are respected and knowledgeable makers that combine multiple pb washers to achieve desired spacing in the pivot, and some think the multi-washer pivots "feel" smoother in use.
 
The easier and IMHO better approach would have been to use pb washers equal to the width of the bearings and otherwise not modify the knife. There are respected and knowledgeable makers that combine multiple pb washers to achieve desired spacing in the pivot, and some think the multi-washer pivots "feel" smoother in use.
I have not seen pb washer of 0.03" thickness, I don't want to stack washers. More importantly, the pivot is too short, the pivot screw is no where bottom out. I do NOT like people using thread lock to hold the screw if the screw does not bottom out as it is weaker. I like to use thinner washers and take off the thickness of the G10 scales a little ( another good thing about this knife is the pivot area of the scale is very thick like 0.1" thick around the pivot point so I can take a little off ( say down to 0.08") without weakening it as support of pivot point. I manage to bottom the pivot screw all the way to get it just right.

I know it is very detail, but I think that's important to bottom out the pivot screw. a lot of knives are sloppy, just using thread lock to keep the pivot screw in place when it's no bottoming out.

I am using 0.5" diameter washers the distribute the force in bigger area also.
 
Because if the force of pulling the screw out is NOT even, it can bend the screw at the bottom of the thread. If it is bottomed out, it will spread the force more evenly, more like pull the screw out than bending the screw.
 
I have not seen pb washer of 0.03" thickness, I don't want to stack washers. More importantly, the pivot is too short, the pivot screw is no where bottom out. I do NOT like people using thread lock to hold the screw if the screw does not bottom out as it is weaker. I like to use thinner washers and take off the thickness of the G10 scales a little ( another good thing about this knife is the pivot area of the scale is very thick like 0.1" thick around the pivot point so I can take a little off ( say down to 0.08") without weakening it as support of pivot point. I manage to bottom the pivot screw all the way to get it just right.

I know it is very detail, but I think that's important to bottom out the pivot screw. a lot of knives are sloppy, just using thread lock to keep the pivot screw in place when it's no bottoming out.

I am using 0.5" diameter washers the distribute the force in bigger area also.
Trying to achieve the EXACT right length pivot bolt to get perfect pivot action would seem even more difficult than the CRK Sebenza bushing approach. Again, multi "washers" is not a bad approach.
 
Because if the force of pulling the screw out is NOT even, it can bend the screw at the bottom of the thread. If it is bottomed out, it will spread the force more evenly, more like pull the screw out than bending the screw.
Take a look at how Strider and Hinderer do their "thru-pivot" bolt arrangement. IMHO "bottoming out" is a really difficult way to go.
 
Take a look at how Strider and Hinderer do their "thru-pivot" bolt arrangement. IMHO "bottoming out" is a really difficult way to go.
What is that? Do you have any link? I did a quick search and can't find anything. Might be something I can learn for the future.

Yes, I am a little OCD. I am retired, but my mind is still very active. I do all these just like exercising the brain.

Thanks
 
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Thanks

How does this guaranty it can be bottom out. Looks the same to me, it's just prettier.


Usually I put spacer hone to the correct thickness so I can just bottom out and everything still tight on other knives. For this particular one, the G10 scales are very thick around the pivot area, I actually can afford to thin it down a little to make it fit perfectly.

Now, my way is the dumb way, as I said, I have time and it keep me busy for the moment until I find the next interest to move on!!! :D
 
Thanks

How does this guaranty it can be bottom out. Looks the same to me, it's just prettier.


Usually I put spacer hone to the correct thickness so I can just bottom out and everything still tight on other knives. For this particular one, the G10 scales are very thick around the pivot area, I actually can afford to thin it down a little to make it fit perfectly.

Now, my way is the dumb way, as I said, I have time and it keep me busy for the moment until I find the next interest to move on!!! :D
😁 Actually it is the opposite of what you are attempting - there IS no bottom. But it allows for maximum amount of thread engagement, which I believe is what you mentioned regarding strength.
 
Using a $13 liner lock for prying and thrusting into hard objects.

What could possibly go wrong?
Why do you put a price tag on this, it's about the design, the steel used. You look at the pictures? look at it in tern of physics, level action. The thickness at the right place, the hand protection. It's not about money.

I can assure you the steel is quite hard on both the liner and the blade compare to much more expensive knives.
 
😁 Actually it is the opposite of what you are attempting - there IS no bottom. But it allows for maximum amount of thread engagement, which I believe is what you mentioned regarding strength.
No, it's bottom out, as long as you have 6 or 7 complete turns of thread engagement, I don't think the thread is an issue. If the screw is to short that you only have like 3 or 4 turns, yes, that would be an issue.
 
Why do you put a price tag on this, it's about the design, the steel used. You look at the pictures? look at it in tern of physics, level action. The thickness at the right place, the hand protection. It's not about money.

I can assure you the steel is quite hard on both the liner and the blade compare to much more expensive knives.
Cheap liner locks fail. You need to test this under force, twist and pry with a thrust and pull out of dense material Please do so with metal gauntlets.

I'm glad you got your success! But how will you really know without fully testing?
 
Cheap liner locks fail. You need to test this under force, twist and pry with a thrust and pull out of dense material Please do so with metal gauntlets.

I'm glad you got your success! But how will you really know without fully testing?
Yes, testing is a way, but one can look at the design to predict also. This is an article talking about LEVER action

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

If you look at the internal picture in the 1st post, I specifically labelled "LINER LEVER DISTANCE". There is physics behind this as LEVER action where the longer the distance, the less stress it put onto the liner. If you look at a lot of knives, a lot of them has very short distance in the 0.3" range. This one is particularly long of 0.49". I am still working on how the angle with respect to the pivot affect the outcome, but in general, the stress on the liner lock is 1/2 when the distance is doubled. The longer the "LINER LEVER DISTANCE", the less stress is on the liner. Actually looking at the picture on this is one of the reason why I took the chance to buy the first one to see. You'd be surprised a lot of so called "SURVIVAL" knives with thick blade, heavy and tough looking have very short "LINER LEVER DISTANCE" LIKE 0.3" or less.



Look at this survival knife, heavy, looks tough in the picture. But when I opened it up, looke at the "LINER LEVER DISTANCE" is ONLY 0.34" vs My knife of 0.46". Another thing is from pivot to the blade stop pin is only 0.46" vs my knife of 0.6".

You can see the tough knife put a lot more stress on both the blade stop pin and the liner lock.(assume the pivot angle is same which it is close looking at the picture).

It's not just the cost of the knife or what it advertised to be. One has to really look at the design. I put my bet on my cheap little knife over this heavy tough looking knife even though the liner is slightly thicker ( 0.01").

From calculation 0.6/0.46=1.304 times on the blade stop pin. 0.46/0.34=1.353 times on the liner lock when comparing the two. So even the cheap knife is smaller and thinner, BY DESIGN, it has about 1.3 times advantage over the heavy tough knife.

Also notice on the heavy knife, there is a big hole right under the thumb flipper tap at the base of the blade? That really weaken the blade when comes to prying. Look at the little cheap knife, sure the blade is thinner, but there is no holes on the blade.

Another thing, the liner of the cheap little knife has no cutouts to reduce the weight, the big heavy knife has cutout. That weaken the liner also. So even the thickness of the cheap knife is 0.045" thick vs 0.055" of the heavy knife, I am not sure the heaver knife as advantage as the blade is 3.5" long, that put more stress than a 3" blade on everything. Again, this is LEVER action.
 
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Quality of material (not just hardness of course) will play a big part as well. I have few uses for a folding knife but I always choose one with the best combination of design AND materials for any serious use.
 
Quality of material (not just hardness of course) will play a big part as well. I have few uses for a folding knife but I always choose one with the best combination of design AND materials for any serious use.
Cheap dose not imply cheap material. This is by the feel of this cheap knife. I bent the liner lock out so it put more force onto tank of the blade towards the liner on the opposite side. I can tell the steel is quite tough, tougher than most of the knives I bent including Keizer, Steel Will which are a lot more expensive.

Also, by LEVER action, I compare two knives in the post #16, just by design, the cheap one has about a 1.3 times advantage than the big heavy knife if everything else is equal. There's no way out of the physics.

I test the hardness of the blade by taking two knives to compare, hit the spine of the two blades to see the size of the dent. It's at least as good as the other more expensive ones.

I know some people said this is not a good comparison as they might heat treat only the edge side and leave the spine soft. I don't buy it that they do it on a small pocket knife even if it is expensive. At best, they heat treated the blade as a whole, not going through all the work to harden the edge only.

So I don't believe the material is inferior.

Also, this knives are the sharpest compare with all my other ones. All 4 of them are just as sharp, so it's not by accident that the particular one is sharper by accident. It is very obvious sliding paper.

Last and to me is important, I don't want the hardest blade, I want it to be tough. Other people might use it for other purpose, for me, it's survival and self defense, I cannot have a blade that crack on me even if it is super sharp. I think this cheap knife is rate 58-59 in hardness, that's what I want, something that bend first before breaking off.

Also, if you look at the picture of the blade, it has full thickness of the blade reaching 3/4 way to the tip. I expect the tip will break off easily when I pry something. Say it breaks off 3/4", but the rest of the blade is thick enough to withstand a lot of prying. For survival, it's important, it would be bad if it break off at the base of the blade, then I got nothing left.

I give it a lot of thoughts before I post this thread. I know there are tough knives like Cold Steel and Steel Will. Particular Cold Steel, they are tough, but they are so heavy and big. It's like it's always better to carry a 45 pistol, but why people carry a 22? Because it's light, small, concealable, and comfortable. Same here. This cheap knife is 3", thinner, comfortable and more important, it's legal in SF(3" limit). I return my Cold Steel big knife after I discovered this cheap little thing.

Design is every bit as if not more important than the material, a well designed wood building can be stronger than a steel building easily.
 
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I doubt that.
All those cheap knives I measured are in the range of 50 to 52HRc.
It specified 58 to 59HRc. I can assure you when I hit the spines between this and a Steel Will, they dented just as much if not less than the Steel Will. I know the Steel Will is as good as a lot of other knives.

 
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