Finish changing from ball bearing pivot to bronze washer.

[jbmonkey]

It all depends on what is a knife serve for different individuals. Like I said many times, A knife is a survival tool and and self defense tool. Edge retention is of no importance to me. When I bought a knife, I shred paper to test the sharpness, then I NEVER use it to cut anything IF I can help it. It's only for one time use when it matters and my life depends on it.

This means blade not breaking is a lot more important. So I choose softer material like this one that is 58-59HRc. I don't want any harder than that. It's 8Cr, on the cheap side, but not the lowest like the 5 or 7.


I can think of a similar situation for cars. for performance, you can't beat a Ferrari, it runs circles around a cheap Toyota. BUT for someone that want reliability and safety, Toyota beats the Ferrari hands down. I am looking for safety and reliability, so I pick a Toyota. FYI, I was very into cars, I did a lot of research to say this. You buy a Ferrari, you better buy something like a Toyota as back up when the Ferrari breaks down......and it will.

To each their own, it's not I don't listen to people here. But I have been explaining my purpose for having a knife, it's very different from most people here. So their suggestions do not fit me. There got to be some people here that think like me. I know a few friends carrying a knife for self defense only. Most of us don't go to the wild that need a knife to do a lot of stuffs. We live in big cities where crime and car accident is more likely. So to each their own. I do practice with a plastic knife slashing and shanking on my heavy kicking bag at home. Nothing is worst thinking that carrying a knife will save you without practicing. I carry a walking cane everywhere I go....not for walking. I practice stick fight for 3yrs, I beat on the heavy kicking bag too to practice. It would be a big mistake carrying a weapon but not practicing it, thinking it can safe their lives.

have any videos of you training with the plastic knives on the heavy bag?

 

[Guy McVer]

A blade does not need to be a “super steel” to be good but it surely needs a proper heat treat to work.

Yes this is true.

Yes your knife MAY be sharp enough for one cut.......what however (likely) may happen is that first or second or third cut is across a material that is going to roll the edge right off a garbage soft steel blade, something like a leather jacket, zipper, belt, watch...all things in areas you will be targeting in such an encounter..... all of a sudden you are left with an edge that can no longer effectively make the cuts YOU are requiring of it.

You are right about heat treatment and you're right about edge retention, but I am not completely convinced that a self-defense knife needs to have a sharp edge in order to be effective as a self defense weapon.

When I think about how people don't feel pain while their body is pumped full of adrenaline, and I think about the use of force being judged as to how proportional to a threat that it is, then a knife that doesn't slice through flesh as easily might actually be preferable to one that is sharp enough to easily cause serious damage to a person's flesh to the point that they'd need emergency medical care from trained professionals.

A dull knife can still be harmful or fatal. Perhaps a sharp one is more dangerous than you realize. If your goal is self-defense then perhaps you might not want the knife to be too sharp because you may do more harm with it than you intended to.



I don't know the subject of self defense very well.

I do not practice fighting with knives.

I am not a lawyer or a legal expert.

 

[alan0354]

Yeah, I get how levers work but until you test the liner lock and it's "lever distance" all you have here is educated speculation. I'd also wager tang and liner lock face contact area plays a roll. That nedfloss knife has very little.

Btw, if you want people to take you more seriously, don't use nedfloss knives as examples, they all suck. And your lever distance is listed as .49 in the pic but you quote .46. Gotta keep all that engineering accurate.

Put your theory to the test. Video it as proof. It's the only way.

I just use nedfloss as an example as I have one given by my grandson.

I am not here to earn respect, I talk about my work, I really don't care whether I get respect or not.

Theory is very important particular simple and obvious stuff. you don't believe in theory, it's up to you. That's how engineers work.

I don't want to get into argument, you have your believe, I have mine, we agree to disagree.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

Yes this is true.



You are right about heat treatment and you're right about edge retention, but I am not completely convinced that a self-defense knife needs to have a sharp edge in order to be effective as a self defense weapon.

When I think about how people don't feel pain while their body is pumped full of adrenaline, and I think about the use of force being judged as to how proportional to a threat that it is, then a knife that doesn't slice through flesh as easily might actually be preferable to one that is sharp enough to easily cause serious damage to a person's flesh to the point that they'd need emergency medical care from trained professionals.

A dull knife can still be harmful or fatal. Perhaps a sharp one is more dangerous than you realize. If your goal is self-defense then perhaps you might not want the knife to be too sharp because you may do more harm with it than you intended to.



I don't know the subject of self defense very well.

I do not practice fighting with knives.

I am not a lawyer or a legal expert.

If you are defending your life with an edged weapon things have become very very dire. You need a tool that will provide some level of incapacitation. Knives have two functions when being used in a fight, stabbing and slashing (in the broadest of terms). It has been my experience that stabbing (unless one takes out the spinal cord) is somewhat ineffective as often the stabbed does not in fact know they have been so (often I hear "I thought he punched me), stabbing may certainly be fatal but not necessarily quickly so (quick enough to prevent that person doing you serious hard before they bleed out or drown from a leaking lung). Slashing, likewise the assailant *may* not know it has happened however loss of use of a hand/arm because you have severed tendons/ligaments often brings this point home, the psychological impact of "lots of blood" cannot be discounted either. If a blade can't makes it's way through clothing etc and into some mobility/dexterity aiding meaty bits it is not much use. Taking a blunt or easily blunted knife into a knife fight (no matter if there are one or two knives, it is now a knife fight) is akin to taking an unloaded firearm. It may also be the case that if a person defending themselves fails to inflict enough injury on their attacker they just make the bad person angrier from which point onward they press home an attack. Blunt knives make very very poor impact weapons.

I watched CCTV of an incident (working to identify the assailant) in which two guys got into it in the gaming room ("slot machines in US speak) of a pub. Words exchanged and a push and shove then "punches" including a pretty wild looking haymaker than connected with an upper arm. The one struck described the sensation of being struck hard in the arm with something hard. His assailant turned and walked away casually as the victim stood their wondering why his arm was not really responding. His bicep had been split in half down to the bone, lucky not to bleed out and lucky the other guy didn't press the attack (he had in fact previously murdered). There is no half measure especially if age/physical ability is not on your side.

 

[alan0354]

Banging blades together to determine hardness levels.

Believing whatever the ad copy from a Chinese knife manufacturer says about the HRC.

Comparing the quality of one Chinese gas station knife to another Chinese gas station knife (a $13 Chinese liner lock and a Chinese Ned Foss knife).

Judging the lockup of an Emerson by a single pic of a mostly disassembled knife.

Thinking you know more than a guy who has been designing and making knives for law enforcement and military personnel for over 4 decades (Emerson).

Insisting that you would prefer to trust your fingers to a $13 liner lock when prying and stabbing.


This just get more and more absurd. But hey, it is amusing .


There was a time, not too long ago, when I would have tried to have a serious discussion with Alan about his views and misconceptions about knives, but I tried that already in another thread, as have many others, and it's clear that Alan is ALWAYS right (in his own mind), and that anyone who disagrees is wrong, because it's physics!, and he's an "engineer" .

All you can do is just sit back, read, and laugh. Heck, they're not my fingers.

Don't talk to me then. Unless you start getting into physics, there's nothing to talk with you. Something so simple and you don't seems to understand.

You want to pay more, it's your money, I have my opinion.

I hit the spine with Steel Will, Keizer, CJRB, not the Nedfoss.. Those are middle of the road knives. Like I said, I DO NOT WANT HARD STEEL.

I like to talk to people that is into physics and engineering. We always do theory rather try and see.

 

[alan0354]

I never studied lever action in high school. We weren't allowed to carry rifles.
I did study leverage, and I also learned that eyeball tests are not very accurate, unlike a lever action rifle.

It depends on one's knowledge level. I design most of my circuits, system from paper to working products. This is called experience. This is so simple.

 

[alan0354]

Banging blades together to determine hardness levels.

Believing whatever the ad copy from a Chinese knife manufacturer says about the HRC.

Comparing the quality of one Chinese gas station knife to another Chinese gas station knife (a $13 Chinese liner lock and a Chinese Ned Foss knife).

Judging the lockup of an Emerson by a single pic of a mostly disassembled knife.

Thinking you know more than a guy who has been designing and making knives for law enforcement and military personnel for over 4 decades (Emerson).

Insisting that you would prefer to trust your fingers to a $13 liner lock when prying and stabbing.


This just get more and more absurd. But hey, it is amusing .


There was a time, not too long ago, when I would have tried to have a serious discussion with Alan about his views and misconceptions about knives, but I tried that already in another thread, as have many others, and it's clear that Alan is ALWAYS right (in his own mind), and that anyone who disagrees is wrong, because it's physics!, and he's an "engineer" .

All you can do is just sit back, read, and laugh. Heck, they're not my fingers.

which part I said I don't want the blade to be hard, read my detail posts of what I am looking for.

I don't think you have enough knife experience to know that a disassembled knife ain't gonna line up. If the gap is there when assembled, then we have something noteworthy.

This is where you need to recognize, many people here have way more experience than you. How many knives you disassembled? I've got a few hundred under my belt, and others here have way more. I can tell you 100% that you cannot draw the conclusion you have from a screen shot on the internet.

Keep it humble my man.

Look at the picture again blade in pivot, you see the blade stop hole line up with the end of the blade, then look at the line lock has a gap.

You disassemble knives to look?

Yes, looking at so many stupid designs, I question some of those knife makers know physics. It's so easy to design this.

 

[alan0354]

....sorry Alan this is where I believe you are badly mistaken....this is from someone who has seen more edged weapon encounters than your average bunny (no not as a protagonist). Yes your knife MAY be sharp enough for one cut.......what however (likely) may happen is that first or second or third cut is across a material that is going to roll the edge right off a garbage soft steel blade, something like a leather jacket, zipper, belt, watch...all things in areas you will be targeting in such an encounter..... all of a sudden you are left with an edge that can no longer effectively make the cuts YOU are requiring of it. Yes your life may depend on it, and you have stacked the odds more against yourself. I am not an Emerson fan boy but he does make a more than useful tool. Just now you are not comparing Ferrari to Toyota. You are comparing Mercedes to Yugo (at best).

I told you already I test the hardness of the blade by hitting the spines with other knives like Steel Will, CJRB, Keizer type of middle of the road knives and it's just as hard. That's that.

I don't buy into this does not show the hardness.

 

[alan0354]

have any videos of you training with the plastic knives on the heavy bag?

No, I started only like 2 months.

 

[alan0354]

Yes this is true.



You are right about heat treatment and you're right about edge retention, but I am not completely convinced that a self-defense knife needs to have a sharp edge in order to be effective as a self defense weapon.

When I think about how people don't feel pain while their body is pumped full of adrenaline, and I think about the use of force being judged as to how proportional to a threat that it is, then a knife that doesn't slice through flesh as easily might actually be preferable to one that is sharp enough to easily cause serious damage to a person's flesh to the point that they'd need emergency medical care from trained professionals.

A dull knife can still be harmful or fatal. Perhaps a sharp one is more dangerous than you realize. If your goal is self-defense then perhaps you might not want the knife to be too sharp because you may do more harm with it than you intended to.



I don't know the subject of self defense very well.

I do not practice fighting with knives.

I am not a lawyer or a legal expert.

I think they never read the part after I do paper slicing when I first got the knife, I NEVER use it to cut anything anymore. I carry it hoping I never have to pull it out. If I ever have to, it only has to last that one time.

To each their own, knife is for survival to me. I need more a blade don't break when prying. Softer steel is better.

I don't think they accept the idea I did test the hardness by hitting the spine with other middle of the road D2 blades and it performed at least as good. IT'S PLENTY HARD AND GOOD EDGE RETENTION IN MY BOOK ALREADY.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I don't buy into this does not show the hardness.

..........for a person who likes to work on fact and evidence you seem adverse to quality testing in this point. Nonetheless your understanding of the uses/needs of a bladed weapon is a life threatening situation is highly flawed. I am glad you are happy with the "physics and engineering" concepts of your work and that is for you. Most here just don't want the novice reader to think you are actually correct in terms of use. I worry for you Alan, I say that genuinely as your reliance of flawed doctrine may give you a very false sense of security.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I need more a blade don't break when prying

.....where is prying involved in the effective fighting part ? Genuine not loaded question.

 

[alan0354]

.....where is prying involved in the effective fighting part ? Genuine not loaded question.

That's for in case in car accident that I need to pry the door of other things. It's survival for me.

Actually self defense is more secondary, I have my walking cane with me all the time and I practice stick fight. But if I lose my cane( easier than people realize), this is back up.

 

[alan0354]

..........for a person who likes to work on fact and evidence you seem adverse to quality testing in this point. Nonetheless your understanding of the uses/needs of a bladed weapon is a life threatening situation is highly flawed. I am glad you are happy with the "physics and engineering" concepts of your work and that is for you. Most here just don't want the novice reader to think you are actually correct in terms of use. I worry for you Alan, I say that genuinely as your reliance of flawed doctrine may give you a very false sense of security.

How do you know mine is flawed doctrine? you have any solid proof? tell me then, don't just say I am wrong. This is a discussion forum, saying "you are wrong" doesn't mean anything. Give me example in scientific way, then we talk,.

the knife is Kexmo, you find anything very negative, let me know. Bad mouthing is not going to work for me.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Why don't you just carry a gun?

 

[alan0354]

Hey guys and gals, I can be convinced, I show my side of the theory, I gave examples, theory.

If you do not agree, prove me wrong with solid theory or real examples. Don't just say just because it's $13 and it is BAD no matter what. This is not an argument or debate, it's ONLY YOUR BELIEVE. JUST BECAUSE YOU ALL BELIEVE THIS WAY DON'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

I use theory and show in detail. If you don't agree, prove me wrong with real example.

The brand is Kexmo, you find bad things about it, show me.

 

[alan0354]

Why don't you just carry a gun?

I used to for years. One day I asked myself whether I can live with killing someone regardless whether it's justified or not. I can't answer that. So I stop carry a gun.

My main defense weapon is my cane and I practice stick fight and kick boxing. Knife is the back up if it ever need to. More for survival like in car accident that this is my only tool I can reach, that I might have to cut/pry myself free.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

That's for in case in car accident that I need to pry the door of other things. It's survival for me.

.....thats fair. Understood.

How do you know mine is flawed doctrine?

...... your expressed concepts of the use (and needs for) of a bladed weapon in a fight and demonstrably flawed. For example a soft blade has an edge that will roll quite possibly on your first cut upon a resistive surface, any follow ups you require will be much less effective, that "one cut" you get from the soft blade "may" not do what you need it to do (get through clothing and cause incapacitation. A simple question for you, no hyperbole etc how many times in your life have you been up close to a fight involving blade, active or outcome ? Do you understand what is require to come away from these successfully (even just creating an opportunity to flee for help) ? In your case I 100% agree with you that your "cane" is by far ....far far far....a better choice in a defensive situation. You have chosen not to avail yourself of a firearm, that is your choice.

Your spine smacking test is also not an accurate and repeatable measure (you know, science) of blade hardness or softness, likewise the factory specs are a "guide" particularly on a budget knife.

 

[alan0354]

.....thats fair. Understood.

...... your expressed concepts of the use (and needs for) of a bladed weapon in a fight and demonstrably flawed. For example a soft blade has an edge that will roll quite possibly on your first cut upon a resistive surface, any follow ups you require will be much less effective, that "one cut" you get from the soft blade "may" not do what you need it to do (get through clothing and cause incapacitation. A simple question for you, no hyperbole etc how many times in your life have you been up close to a fight involving blade, active or outcome ? Do you understand what is require to come away from these successfully (even just creating an opportunity to flee for help) ? In your case I 100% agree with you that your "cane" is by far ....far far far....a better choice in a defensive situation. You have chosen not to avail yourself of a firearm, that is your choice.

Your spine smacking test is also not an accurate and repeatable measure (you know, science) of blade hardness or softness, likewise the factory specs are a "guide" particularly on a budget knife.

Like I said, if you or other disagree, prove to me I am wrong in a measurable way, not just say I am wrong. It's going nowhere if I say you are wrong or you said I am wrong. You disagree, show me evidence and facts.

I show my reasoning in scientific way, you disagree, show me why by facts. It doesn't mean anything saying "you are wrong".


I should say NOT as hard blade, 8Cr with 58HRc is plenty hard. I proved by hitting the spine with a middle of the road knives and show it's just as hard. That's good enough for me. I am not talking about really soft blade.

I actually find the spine strike reasonably repeatable, I don't mind denting the spine, so I did enough and it's consistent. If you think this is not reliable experiment, tell me why with scientific backing.

Yes, I have seen knives spec for D2 steel suffered bid dent on spine striking, I know better not to just read the spec alone. That's the reason I do the spine striking. You cannot hide from making a dent!!! They all make dents, question is how big compare between the two knives. I can say with confident, the hardness of the blade of this cheap knife is comparable to Steel Will D2 blades. This is quite scientific.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I am most pointedly saying you are wrong on your thoughts about using a blade for self defence. However the renowned scientist Blind Freddy knows that walking a couple of spines together is not scientific or entirely repeatable. Why not have them actually RC tested. That would actually be “science”. To turn this around, you make bold statements about science, physics and engineering on a very cheaply made knife. You have proved little other than a, commendable perhaps, commitment to a cause.