Finnish/Earlier Scandi axes - Kirves

Discussion in 'Axe, Tomahawk, & Hatchet Forum' started by Agent_H, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    @jake pogg, here is the pdf you sent me in screenshots . I believe this was done by Terje Granaas, who looks to be a pretty skilled guy. I think this might be him? – interesting stuff:
    http://www.smed-terje-granaas.no/

    Analyse av egen øks
    https://www.scribd.com/document/129690050/Analyse-av-egen-øks (pdf)
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    This fellow (smith) came up further down the rabbit hole:
    Øystein Myhre
    "Visit in Myhresmia

    Tuesday 15/1 was Ole Johan Haavengen, Magnus and I in Sandefjord and visited smith Øystein Myhre. It became a very exciting and interesting visit. Øystein has specialized in tooling and is an expert in copying old axes, and as previously mentioned in the blog, he has been commissioned to copy 4 axes and other tools used on Heimtveiten for us ."
    From http://heimtveiten.blogspot.com/2013/01/

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    http://heimtveiten.blogspot.com/2013/01/

    I posted from this site earlier in the thread but I think these might be his as well (as far as cursory Google translate gives up) –

    https://hoveloghage.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/middelalderverktoy-til-japan/
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    *I assume "Egg" is "Edge"?
     
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  2. Kevin Houtzager

    Kevin Houtzager

    908
    Jun 25, 2017
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    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  3. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Agent_H,thank you so much,Sir...(i forget now why i thought it was germane now,but just for general interest,and the overall Cool-factor...(one must Never neglect the cool-factor...:))

    Kevin,the lack of photographs,very questionable books,most suspicious artefacts from the British Museum(that den of lies and vice:)...
    And,the final infamy-that utter,shameless lack of little holes!!!
    Ok,Sir,I GIVE UP!!!!:)
    And loudly and publicly declaim:Kevin is Right.That detail of tool design of the axes of N.Europe has occured Spontaneously and Instantly,without the Least antedecent,in the year 1600 of our Lord Exactly.
    Amen.
    :)

    Now,for the rest of us,that are interested in seeing where the archaeological evidence MAY take us,here's some curious Persian artefacts
    http://ancienttouch.com/1325_bronze_age_axe.jpg

    Now,i'm normally very skeptical about those antiquities auction-houses,they can be,and often are,erroneous in their attributions,and/or just plain dishonest.
    But,this time a number of factors convinced me to at least consider it:I like the looks of that bibliography(not that i've followed through on it).
    Another reason is that maybe especially in case these are fake,the Psychology behind faking such stuff is kinda telling...So maybe people Did tend toward similar design solution?
    And the last reason was that their peculiar similarities with the lines/angles of Kirves is just plain Cute!!!:)

    Bibliography on those bronxe Iranian axes:

    For published examples see:

    - J. Deshayes, Les outils de bronze, de l’Indus au Danube (Paris, 1960), pl. 18, 1319; pl. 19, 1324, pl. 20, 1325.

    - Stutzinger D., Mit Hieb und Stich Bronzewaffen aus dem alten Iran Die Sammlung von Gravert (Frakfurt am Main, 2008), p.50

    - The British Museum, Splendours of Mesopotamia, London, British Museum Press, 2011, p.54, cat.31

    - A. Godard, Les Bronzes du Luristan, Ars Asiatica 17 (Paris, 1931) nos. 39-41, pls. 14

    - F. Tallon, Métallurgie susienne 1: De la fondation de Suse au XVIIIe siècle avant J.-C. (Paris, 1987), nos. 39-41
     
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  4. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Agent_H,that photo on the anvil-face,before folding,is brilliant-one can really see the taper of the tongue of haft-a Very important factor,could be...

    Thank you,i've never seen any of that.
     
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  5. littleknife

    littleknife

    Nov 29, 2000
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
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  6. littleknife

    littleknife

    Nov 29, 2000
    Thanks for posting the pics, Agent_H! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
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  7. Kevin Houtzager

    Kevin Houtzager

    908
    Jun 25, 2017
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    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  8. Kevin Houtzager

    Kevin Houtzager

    908
    Jun 25, 2017
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    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  9. littleknife

    littleknife

    Nov 29, 2000
    Hey Kevin, I thought you were ignoring me. :D

    Sorry for the misinformations in my post.

    Quote from the wikipedia link:

    The Mérode Altarpiece[A] (or Annunciation Triptych) is an oil on oak panel triptych. It is unsigned and undated, but attributed to the workshop of the Early Netherlandish painter Robert Campin

    which links to:

    Early Netherlandish painting is the work of artists, sometimes known as the Flemish Primitives, active in the Burgundian and Habsburg Netherlands during the 15th- and 16th-century Northern Renaissance; especially in the flourishing cities of Bruges, Ghent, Mechelen, Louvain, Tournai and Brussels, all in contemporary Flanders.

    which links to:

    Flanders (Dutch: Vlaanderen [ˈvlaːndərə(n)] ([​IMG] listen), French: Flandre [flɑ̃dʁ], German: Flandern) is the Dutch-speaking northern portion of Belgium, although there are several overlapping definitions, including ones related to culture, language, politics and history.

    and:

    In the history of the Low Countries, the Burgundian Netherlands (French: Pays-Bas Bourguignons, Dutch: Bourgondische Nederlanden, Luxembourgish: Burgundeschen Nidderlanden, Walloon: Bas Payis bourguignons) were a number of Imperial and French fiefs ruled in personal union by the House of Valois-Burgundy and their Habsburg heirs in the period from 1384 to 1482. The area comprised large parts of present-day Belgium and the Netherlands, as well as Luxembourg and parts of northern France.

    Evidently the “Netherlands” meant a different geographical entity during that period than today. State and province borders change…
    So evidently, 15th Century Netherlands is not necessarily the same as today’s Netherlands. Belgium did not exist as an independent country until 1830, and I was talking about the late Middle Ages (15th Century). The famous Belgian waffles notwithstanding. :D

    Also, sorry for being off by several decades regarding the date of the painting depicting the collared axe. Even if the piece was painted in a mid 15th Century, it still documents the presence of collared iron axes to at least 150 years earlier than your favorite 1600 date.
    And yes, I know you were waiving your hands after Jake Pogg posted evidence contrary to your opinion, but you still doubled down that 1600 is the date for surely dating the appearance of collared iron axes.

    You said:
    "It's not that resolved! Only the safe date of about 1600 is. But we allready knew that. And of course there were socket axes. (the translating for kokerbijl, so thanx for that). But with collared axes I mean an elongated socket axe with the Blade on the side instead of at the top. And the evidence suggest It's 1600, but it could still be a lot earlier? I just haven’t found any conclusive evidence of that. (yet)”

    As you see, there is conclusive evidence for an earlier than 1600 date and the evidence does not seem to support your fantasy regarding the collars being the evolution of langets on battle axes. The Serbian battle axes I posted earlier do have relatively short collars and they would have definitely benefited from long langets or long collars. Maybe their original hafts had non-integral langet-like metal strips, I don’t know. But it seems that the collars do not originate from the langets.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
  10. littleknife

    littleknife

    Nov 29, 2000
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medie...le:BMM-WeaponsOfRaškaAndZetaInMiddleAges1.JPG

    The Serbian axe (allegedly a battle axe) on the left looks very much like a medieval hewing axe.It could be that indeed it was a hewing axe used as a weapon too, or it could also be that it was a true carpentry tool used by a carpenter in the service of the Serbian army unit.
    Jake Pogg and others have pointed it out in some other threads that there was a cross-over between woodworking axes (and also some agricultural tools like the scythe and flail) and weapons.

    The important point is that the collared axes were common and widespread tools across Europe since at least the middle or late medieval ages and survived until today in Finland (and to some extent, as Jake mentioned it, until very recently in France, Belgium and Central Europe too).
    The “history lesson” promoted by Kevin in post #374 is a pure fantasy, promoted by his uncritical and skewed interpretation of history, even in the face of all the contrary evidence provided by Jake Pogg.
     
  11. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Kevin,Littleknife has put it very straightforward and well.As well i think as very dispassionately also,thank you,Littleknife,for that too,and i Am sorry for my sarcasm,Kevin,i'll definitely try to tone it down a bit.

    See,there's just so very little room here for any Categorical statements,i think.
    In studies like this the so-called "hard" evidence is a rarity....It's a sensitive,subtle kinda matter,the History in general is,one has to intuit a lot.
    We're ASKING the question here,personally,i don't think we're anywhere close to beginning to Answer it yet,don't you agree?And we probably will never get to answering,not in any concrete,definite sense....

    So,just a respectful suggestion:Let's see what Is known,lets amass what evidence we can,before drawing any conclusions.
    This is what this forum-format is really good at,allowing us the view from so many different(and often unexpected)angles....

    So,Peace,dude:)...and respect.
     
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  12. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    P.S.

    Here's an example of how my own thinking happens:Here's an archaeological study,a valid part of which i could myself never be,so,my impressions are necessarily only General.
    https://museum.wales/blog/2014-01-0...-become-an-Iron-Age-Carpenter/?cat=406&page=5
    In that Very general manner we see that in that part of N.Europe,in that period,people seemed to've socket-mounted many of their tools...
    Not axes,though...(why?-a number of possibilities,and more questions as a result).
    But we do see both the desire to use a tool in a socketed configuration,And,an ability to not only shape the socket,but to weld it close.....
    A tiny,100% inconclusive scrap into our humble store....
    How many fragments of knowledge will eventually contribute to our picture?
    Why,that number is Infinite....:(
     
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  13. Kevin Houtzager

    Kevin Houtzager

    908
    Jun 25, 2017
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    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  14. Steve Tall

    Steve Tall

    Aug 28, 2010
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  15. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Thank you,Steve,very interesting story,and a neat axe...

    Here's another kink,as it were,in our convoluted history of handling such a seemingly-simple tool as an axe...

    https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/francesca-francisca-frankish-throwing-axe.1241204/

    (i'll confess right away that i don'r subscribe to the Myth of "franciska the Throwing axe"...i think what few snatches of historical data that supposedly pertain to it are contrived,and the idea itself-bogus,but it's just me:)...

    Meanwhile,it's actually a quite legit,and fairly modern even,way to forge an eye on the axe.
    Just recently i've seen a B&W video of a German factory doing just this...A neat way to end up with the extended rear portion of an eye...

    (darn it,wish i was better organised,and kept the video...:(....

    It could,possibly, indicate an old technique that has survived the Industrial Age and has become adopted via newer methods,much like the Scandi/Kirves ext.socket,welded originally,but what practically amounts to DOM,"drawn over mandrell" later, in the 20th c.
     
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  16. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    https://imgur.com/a/nVxYo

    :)...and that's 21st century....fiberglass handle...and a Very cheap Chinese hammer...

    (Square_peg will see that,and i'll tawdally loose face...see what you drive me to,Kevin?...:)
     
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  17. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    A-and,the one and only...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18083

    Where would we all be without ye olde vikingsword...Much tiresome militaria,taken VERY seriously,et c.,..but,some interesting things,and from fairly committed,serious people.Again,more Dutch altarpiece info...

    And an interesting axe in post #6.Dating seemingly 15th c.,but given it's already complete,familiar even to us today shape,i'd be greatly surprised if a similar one wasn't used by every woodchopper in those areas for many,many years prior...
     
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