fire starting

[skammer]

Survival is about dying later rather than sooner. There are many ways to die and,equally, skills to delay death of many kinds; none foolproof. Murphy's law can intervene siding with or against the Grim Reaper; And Lady Luck always plays her hand.

Probably, sites dedicated to diet, exercise and medical prevention outnumber sites on survival skills, guns and knives, many times over, and rightfully so. Nowadays, in the first world, more people die from poor health than getting lost in the wilderness. But no amount of fitness, prevention or nutrition can save you if the Big C decides it's your turn.

Similarly, many more people die from car accidents than getting lost in the wilderness. One can change the odds driving more carefully, defensive driving courses, and/or driving as little as possible. But if a PeterBuilt 18 wheeler jumps the divider and hits you head on, you've bought the farm.

Some of the things that play the biggest role in shortening life today may not be the same thing that end life tomorrow! War, natural disaster and disease can change things in a hurry and wilderness/urban survival could become important overnight. IMO, it's good to keep old skills alive because life could become "coarse, brutish and short" in a hurry.

It takes all kinds with different interests because no individual can know or do all. If we were growing up in a tribal setting we would naturally absorb survival, appropriate to climate, terrain and wildlife, from our elders. But in the modern world, we do not automatically learn these things.

In the case of fire starting, some will be thinking of matches and lighters with petroleum products as accelerants, some magnesium or flint and steel. The nature and duration of the crisis will determine which kind of preparedness is the most effective. Starting a fire by rubbing wood to wood in the presence of tinder is a skill hard to master. When practised by and expert, it is foolproof...as long as there is wood around. I wonder if there is anyone on the forum who has made fires with an improvised stick and bow.

Firestarting is a small, but important wilderness skill.

Pure poetry! :thumbup:

Lets add to the ? How many have started a fire via wood in the woods with immediately obtained raw materials and without the aid of manmade cordage for their bow.
Accomplish this and you truely have a survival skill.

Skam

 

[bulgron]

Lets add to the ? How many have started a fire via wood in the woods with immediately obtained raw materials and without the aid of manmade cordage for their bow.

I made a fire exactly once in my life with a firebow. I think I was 16 at the time and to do it I used one of my bootlaces as the cordage.

My expectation is that I will never in my life need to do this in a true survival situation. If I do, I'll probably die. The reason why is this:

To make the firebow, I need a knife.
If I'm in the woods, I have my knife.
If I have my knife, I also have at least one method of firestarting, and probably more than one method.
I cannot imagine how I would ever end up in the woods without my knife and firestarting materials.
This is, therefore, a skill that's fun to try but unlikely to ever be of real use to me.

The most difficult firestarting situation I can imagine realistically encountering is my firesteel + knife using natural tinders under wet and rainy conditions.

Now that I've written this, I suppose it's always possible that someone could steal all my stuff and leave me naked in the woods to die. But this is not a scenario that I'm anticipating happening anytime soon. Am I being foolish for taking this view?

If someone did leave me naked in the woods under hypothermic conditions, what are the chances that I could make a cutting implement, and build shelter/clothing/fire before I fell victim to the elements? I'm guessing, not very.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have pure friction started, fire plow, it was however on a hot day and it had been hot (for here) for awhile, so tinder was easy and bone dry. I would not want to have to friction start in bad weather and especially after bad weather.

-Cliff

 

[skammer]

Now that I've written this, I suppose it's always possible that someone could steal all my stuff and leave me naked in the woods to die. But this is not a scenario that I'm anticipating happening anytime soon. Am I being foolish for taking this view?

.

Sometimes its not always about the percentages or likelihood of this scenario vs that but the confidence gained in the knowledge that you could if you had too because you have done it before .

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If someone did leave me naked in the woods under hypothermic conditions, what are the chances that I could make a cutting implement, and build shelter/clothing/fire before I fell victim to the elements? I'm guessing, not very.

You start to lose function in your extremes (fingers and toes) almost immediately in extreme cold with no protection, and even when it is only moderate (-20 C) and you have an extended period of time, you will be in considerable discomfort which is kind of distracting. I agree that most of those fantasies are not realistic and have little value.

The reason I spend time with limited tool use is that the experience directly carries over to when you use tools. Often times people will argue they are two different skill sets but this is nonsense. If you spend time building a shelter with a paring knife you will learn things that will enable you to work more efficiently with a parang once you adapt them to the larger tool.

Same for fire building, mainly it has to do with preparing and gathering tinder and how to use wood while burning to get maximal heat, light or smoke.

-Cliff

 

[Vorpal Blade]

I made a fire exactly once in my life with a firebow. I think I was 16 at the time and to do it I used one of my bootlaces as the cordage.

My expectation is that I will never in my life need to do this in a true survival situation. If I do, I'll probably die. The reason why is this:

To make the firebow, I need a knife.
If I'm in the woods, I have my knife.
If I have my knife, I also have at least one method of firestarting, and probably more than one method.
I cannot imagine how I would ever end up in the woods without my knife and firestarting materials.
This is, therefore, a skill that's fun to try but unlikely to ever be of real use to me.

The most difficult firestarting situation I can imagine realistically encountering is my firesteel + knife using natural tinders under wet and rainy conditions.

This is as it should be. We all have our own private expectations and inner dynamic; Our mental icons; It takes all kinds and no one can know or do it all. Most of us, on this forum are interested in tackling the wild using some or most of the advantages of modern technology. How much or little is a matter of personal interest IMO.

We now have the advantage of all the accumulated techniques, manufacturing methods and evolved materials since the stone age. It's not going away and is deeply fascinating to most on Bladeforums, me included. Many have a strong interest in reducing pollution and preserving natural resources but, paradoxically, few lose their interest in high tech.

It is probably safe to say that most of the public rarely or never think about firestarting beyond stove and grill. Then again, a rare few become keenly motivated to delve into early techniques of our ancestors; For example, flint chipping and bow making. In younger days, I tried starting fires from scratch, with varying degrees of limited success. From the anthropological evidence, firestarting using friction only, and doing it consistently and reliably, is a highly developed skill only a few could master then or now.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

From the anthropological evidence, firestarting using friction only, and doing it consistently and reliably, is a highly developed skill only a few could master then or now.

Respectfully, I completely disagree. Making fire by friction is a skill most could master if they take the time to learn. It's just a matter of motivation.

To make the firebow, I need a knife.

Not true, all fire tools can be made with the sharp edge of a rock and I'm not talking about some Erret Callahan manufactured fantasy knife.

Now that I've written this, I suppose it's always possible that someone could steal all my stuff and leave me naked in the woods to die.

Try this scenario, you're out canoeing and you and your buddy unfortunately dump your canoe while trying to get to shore (before you inadvertently go over the falls immediately ahead of you) and while you and your buddy manage to get safely to shore, your canoe and all your gear continued over the falls and were last seen heading to the Arctic Circle. You're wet and you're cold, you need a fire and your fire making equipment was in the canoe........................

Lets add to the ? How many have started a fire via wood in the woods with immediately obtained raw materials and without the aid of manmade cordage for their bow.

I have, using expedient cordage made from 3 ply braided green Milkweed (Asclepias syriaca) skin, 2 ply reverse twist cordage made from Wood Nettle (Laportea canadensis, cordage made by unraveling a piece of denim and making 2 ply reverse twist cordage, and of course, by picking dead stems (in the winter) of both Common Teasel (Dipsacus sylvestris) and Bull Thistle (Cirsium vulgare) and using them for hand drills.

When practised by and expert, it is foolproof

Nothing is foolproof. If you ask any instructor, he will remember times he was skunked, then again, people have been skunked with functioning lighters and matches.

QUOTE=EDGY CODGER]

I wonder if there is anyone on the forum who has made fires with an improvised stick and bow.

Don't know about anybody else, but I have, many times.

QUOTE=EDGY CODGER]

Firestarting is a small, but important wilderness skill.

Dan Schectman, an outdoor writer, once wrote in Backwoodsman magazine (I'm going to paraphrase here) "Of all the skills a backwoodsman needs, firemaking is the most significant. Fire warms us, cooks our food, purifies our water, keeps the creatures of the night at bay, allows us to make tools, and provides not only physical comfort, but spiritual and psychological comfort as well"

And another writer, Jurgen Weiner, a German archaeologist, wrote in the Bulletin of Primitive Technology, " Fire, it goes without question, is mankind’s most important technical appliance. And finding out how to actually make fire, is man’s most important invention."

Both these writers are dead on the mark. There is a memory aid used by wilderness survival instructors to prioritize needs in a survival situation, called the 'Rule of Threes' and it goes something like this - " You can survive without: air for 3 minutes, shelter for 3 hours, water for 3 days, and food for 3 weeks.". In my books, fire is part of shelter, and a whole lot more.

While it's too late to make this a short post, let me sum up by saying, if you spend any amount of time in the backwoods, it would behoove you to learn how to make fire by friction, not to mention it's a little piece of magic.

Doc

 

[Thomas Linton]

Don't most of those who find themselves in a wilderness survival situation have a relatively low level of skill? I.e., they have trouble making fire with matches except in ideal conditions. That they could have spent the time to develop better primitive skills is neither here nor there.

So, given that fire is a very important survival tool (serving every "group" -- including first aid on occasion), on what subject do we spend the limited teaching time/motivation/inclination? I fear that fire by friction, by fireplow, by rock and steel, by ice lens, by fire cord -- all are far down the priority list.

(Now get a learner who want's a survival Phd, and the fun begins.)

Have a lighter and a knife IN YOUR POCKETS, and make a fire as the canoe goes over the falls.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I fear that fire by friction, by fireplow, by rock and steel, by ice lens, by fire cord -- all are far down the priority list.

Yeah, I would start a list off with :

-learn how to avoid such situations in the first place
-when in one develop the ability to stay calm and assess the situation

This means doing such things as preperation, knowing your enviroment, check the weather, telling people were you are going and being on schedule and checking in when you are not. Teaching someone to not panic is exceptionally difficult as some people just tend to spazz and it doesn't matter what you know or what you have if you hyperventilate and pass out. One person throwing a fit can also cause an entire group of people to lose control quickly so you also have to have the ability to work with people. The people you are with are a fairly big resource aside so ethics of just letting them die.

Friction fire starting is just one step removed from regular fire starting, the one difference is the initial spark. It does no good to be able to start a coal if you can't prepare tinder or gather fuel or don't know how to light a fire without setting the woods ablaze or burning yourself readily. Once you have done all those things it is a great skill, but in reality the odds on ever having to rely on it if you take the time to prepare is extremely remote. How many survival situations are actually cases where people lose all their clothes and end up stranded naked in the wilderness far from civilization.

The real reason I work with friction fire starting on occasion isn't because I think I will ever need to do it, the odds are simply too remote, it is because in order to develop a fire from friction or even just a natural flint + steel spark, you need to have much better tinder management than a really hot and sustained flame. This also makes you better with matches when you are in adverse conditions like wind. rain, severe cold, etc. .

-Cliff

 

[longbow50]

I once watched an old Indian man start a fire in a sideways rain. It was awesome. Did he use the ancient methods? Nope, he used gasoline and a road flare. I asked him why he didn't use a firebow or flint and he looked at me like I was crazy. That was enough of an answer to know that even someone that IS proficient with flint/steel or a firebow, should have a more reliable method of starting a fire when it's really needed.

 

[plowboy]

Longbow50,

It is really interesting to learn basic methods of living, but the more I think about it the more I believe that the folks of yesteryear used these methods only because it was the best they had. Would Daniel Boone have carried a flintlock rifle if he had access to a modern center fire? Probably not. I find myself attracted to the old ways, but often stop to wonder why.

The old Indian was smart...wasn't he.



Edit: I assure you that I do my farm work on a tractor....not behind a mule.

 

[longbow50]

Yeah, he was a pretty smart man. Alert with a sharp witt and a whole lot of understanding of life and those things around him. He taught the old ways to his people, as they were taught to him when he was young. He was over 90 at the time I met him, some 40 years ago and his teacher was over 100 when he taught the old man. Lots to be said about listening to an elder when they speak.

 

[kr1]

I once watched an old Indian man start a fire in a sideways rain. It was awesome. Did he use the ancient methods? Nope, he used gasoline and a road flare. I asked him why he didn't use a firebow or flint and he looked at me like I was crazy. That was enough of an answer to know that even someone that IS proficient with flint/steel or a firebow, should have a more reliable method of starting a fire when it's really needed.

I repeat what I stated on another thread. It is a basic axiom that was taught to me that anyone who actually knows how to start a fire with a bowdrill or fire board, etc. is never caught without matches. Or gasoline and a flare. I know that at $1 for three I have them scattered throughout my camping gear and clothes. It would almost be impossible for me to go camping and not "by accident" to have at least three of those lighters in my gear.

While I find it interesting to see things like fire pistons and I want to learn how to make an effective bow drill, I would have to be pretty thick to not have several of these modern miracles (bic lighters, the minis, I love them) scattered throughout my equipment. And I do, always.

KR

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

Awesome thread. Good info. here. I just bought a Sweedish fire steel. And like the original thread stated I also feel it is important to practice these skills. So I gave the Swedish firesteel a try and it worked perfectly. Now I am off to find more "modern" fire starting methods for my SHTF kit.

 

[ashtxsniper]

though i would bump this thread with all the fire making questions lately.