First Emerson custom: CQC-14 Long Blade vs. CQC-14 Production ~ picture review

[richstag]

Well, if we all want to have an argument i'll join in

A thicker bit of metal will be "stronger" in that it can take a larger load before reaching its maximum.
On a liner lock I am willing to say you will never reach the maximum load for that liner to buckle (fail)
unless its stuuuupidly thin, has a hefty defect of some sort or that is what you were specifically trying to do.

A liner can of course still slip off the tang and cause a failure but this can happen on a liner of any thickness not just thin ones.
This is where the proper fitting of a lock makes the difference.
Even on a frame lock there is still a contact point, its not the whole surface area of the lock face and blade tang that meet.

I have no doubt people will have oppinions on either side but IMO this is all pretty much down to peoples perception of whats strong and whats not.

To add to this my CQC-12, along with other framelocks of other makers, have reliefs cut out that, atleast on the Emerson, give you a section of the lock that is THINNER than the liner lock on even a production EKI....

Anyhow, I will not argue with anyone because I am far from an expert on this stuff nor do I think about it while I sleep.

 

[Haze]

To add to this my CQC-12, along with other framelocks of other makers, have reliefs cut out that, atleast on the Emerson, give you a section of the lock that is THINNER than the liner lock on even a production EKI....

Anyhow, I will not argue with anyone because I am far from an expert on this stuff nor do I think about it while I sleep.

That is indeed the case but the thinner part of the lock is of little consequence.
The metal is still much stonger at that point than you or I will ever be to be.
Metals are far stronger under "compression" than they are under lateral pressure (being bent).
There is no way you are going to buckle a lock with your hand under normal use....even under extraordinary use.
The lock is far more likely to fail by slipping off the tang than to fail because the metal had a physical failure.
This is why the lock being fitted properly is way more important than how thick the bits are.

 

[richstag]

That is indeed the case but the thinner part of the lock is of little consequence.
The metal is still much stonger at that point than you or I will ever be to be.
Metals are far stronger under "compression" than they are under lateral pressure (being bent).
There is no way you are going to buckle a lock with your hand under normal use....even under extraordinary use.
The lock is far more likely to fail by slipping off the tang than to fail because the metal had a physical failure.
This is why the lock being fitted properly is way more important than how thick the bits are.

I agree.

 

[Haze]

I'm glad, I was worried as I always find it hard to explain things with these shoes on :thumbup:

 

[Death's Head]

Think of where the direction of the force is going when you are using the knife properly. The force actually should be directed against the stop pin, away from the lock.

 

[bin31z]

that actually looks similar to the blade from a M-wave

 

[Amphibious Tuna]

SIFU1A,
Just a question. If the larger stock liner lock is not required for strength, why does Emerson use them on his customs?
Bob

 

[richstag]

Think of where the direction of the force is going when you are using the knife properly. The force actually should be directed against the stop pin, away from the lock.

I brought this up in a roundabout way in a thread I posted about a new 12 in the form of mentioning the use of a slipjoint as my current edc....

Not that I have not in the past, but I will never drink enough while I am carrying a folding knife to go around stabbing up the joint with it ever again. The thought alone of the knife closing on my hand is enough for me to use my folders as a folder. Even a fixed blade can hurt you in these instances. For example, and don’t ask why, a buddy and I were having a contest years ago. I was using my old SOG trident (the original fixed blade) with that bad ass tip and we were stabbing through sets of encyclopedias... I was getting through 1 and some...Another buddy pulled out a SOG tigershark and well...he was sure that he could get me with this big sucker....two hands and he nailed that thing down into those encyclopedias...the knife stopped and his hands did not...let me say he hardly had his last couple fingers hanging on.

Point is knives are really best used for their intended purposes. I could not agree more about what direction the force is applied while a folder is used to CUT something.

 

[Haze]

Think of where the direction of the force is going when you are using the knife properly. The force actually should be directed against the stop pin, away from the lock.

You come in here and throw our argument out the widow with your logic :grumpy:

:thumbup:

You absolutly right but on the other hand the lock is there to stop the knife
folding up in the eventuality that the forces are applied the other way, so
there is defo some merit to how strong and reliable a lock actually is.

 

[richstag]

You come in here and throw our argument out the widow with your logic :grumpy:

:thumbup:

You absolutly right but on the other hand the lock is there to stop the knife
folding up in the eventuality that the forces are applied the other way, so
there is defo some merit to how strong and reliable a lock actually is.

Again, I agree. I would much rather have a properly fitted well designed lock then a poorly fitted lock. I could not agree more.

In my opinion, my sebenza's lock inspires the most confidence. Not much of an angle and REALLY well fitted. I still will not use it backwards or go around stabbing tress and such with it though. I think you and I are still reading the same book Haze

 

[Death's Head]

Even with the points that I made, I don't dismiss the significance of a thicker lock. I believe it's one aspect to a well made lock. I still love a well made framelock over any other lock.

 

[SIFU1A]

SIFU1A,
Just a question. If the larger stock liner lock is not required for strength, why does Emerson use them on his customs?
Bob

a lot of the customs have the thinner liner locks FWIW, all of them the last couple of yrs though are the thick ones, i dont know that it couldnt change though.

 

[A.P.F.]

There is a point of diminishing returns where liner or frame locks are concerned. In the pic below, you can see an insanely thick tang, being held open by an amazingly thick titanium liner. You could strip a third off the thickness of that liner and still have a lock that is more than strong enough, even for a Strider/Buck. It is easy to choose size over quality engineering, but in my book, quality beats quantity every time.

 

[Death's Head]

a lot of the customs have the thinner liner locks FWIW, all of them the last couple of yrs though are the thick ones, i dont know that it couldnt change though.

The liners I've seen on many customs these days have been between 0.05-0.07".

 

[gull wing]

A fine looking knife indeed.
Thick handle though!

 

[STR]

There is a point of diminishing returns where liner or frame locks are concerned. In the pic below, you can see an insanely thick tang, being held open by an amazingly thick titanium liner. You could strip a third off the thickness of that liner and still have a lock that is more than strong enough, even for a Strider/Buck. It is easy to choose size over quality engineering, but in my book, quality beats quantity every time.

Thats a good pic but just to cover some of the technical aspects of the model more than a few of those Buck Strider 880 and 881 models had blade roll from the locks coming from the factory set up so they were contacting the blade in the wrong spots in the middle and/or top of the lock instead of the bottom third as they are supposed to. Thats why the first question asked by many potential buyers before buying a used one was simply, 'does the blade have any vertical play? So many of them had play that it became common knowledge among those that owned some of them. I personally bought three 881SP models direct from Buck during one of their specials. Out of that three just one came with a rock solid lock up.

I was sent more than a few of those models to take the play out of the blades by correcting the contact. So even though you show what looks like a great lock angle for the contact on the blade and a good contact the contact can still be technically wrong in application or design. Don't get me wrong the locks worked but as I said many of them had that pesky blade movement noticed by more than a few users of the models. You can't tell everything by looking at a good pic like yours. Its just one aspect of the lock up and how it mates to the blade.

 

[SIFU1A]

The liners I've seen on many customs these days have been between 0.05-0.07".

so?

i have seen plenty with the thin too.............

 

[Death's Head]

I'm just concurring what you posted earlier about thicker liners. I'm just expressingthe observation of many tactical knife makers leaning towards the use of thicker rather than thinner liners these days.

 

[STR]

Thicker stock costs more to purchase than thinner stock whether it be titanium, stainless steel, G10 or anything else we use. More than a few end line users know this and they also know thicker will be more rigid laterally with less noticed flex and yes its often times thought of as stronger just for these reasons because, well in those aspects it is indeed stronger than thinner stock.

Its seen by many as a sign of added value to have thicker liners in a folder vs thinner particularly by those that are potential customers comparing between two or three models trying to decide which to buy. I would say the liner thickness probably helped many make up their minds as to which one they went with in the end comparing apples to apples across the board all else being the same except for one that had some chunky liners in it that just added something in their minds making it the top choice.

On Emerson models its good that many times the Wave is a factor that is picked even above thicker liners because its something only offered in a few places. I say that based on feed back I've had from my own customers who often tell me they love everything about their Emerson except the "whimpy thin" liners Their words not mine. Speaking of my customers, I don't believe half the number of people opting to have a frame lock conversion done on these knives would even consider it if the liners were chunky to begin with. I base that across the board on what I've been asked to do for folks. I mean just look and it stands out. Looking at another manufacturer or two its the same way, Kershaw for example.I've never had a request to convert a JYDII liner lock but have done several of the thinner liner models including the Blur from Kershaw. Why do you think that is? Doesn't take much to figure out in my opinion. I can say that for Spyderco having done several Military models now for members of the forums. The point is it doesn't matter what the facts may actually be, its the perceived facts or more specifically, what is perceived as the facts as noted by users, potential customers and others that matter more than facts.

While its true that reliability has nothing to do with the thickness of the lock the frame is more rigid and the lock less likely to flex under load when its thick .The fact is you can have reliability, strength and thicker liners with all the perceived benefits from those chunky liners (added value a big one) or you can have reliabilty, strength and thinner liners. So the reasoning is, why not offer what customers want giving into their perceptions to offer them all three options instead of just two of the three and constantly be asked in threads like these and at shows to explain the thinner liner choice??

By the way, I would be the first to agree that a .080 solid liner lock with no lock cuts to bend the lock to make the spring tension but otherwise made exactly the same as a frame lock made with lock cuts, is stronger than a .125 or thicker frame lock that has a lock cut done to extremes but most perceive the frame lock to still be adequately strong in normal uses and even some not so normal ones, and many consider the frame lock to be stronger although I'd have to say strength is not its forte`. I do think the frame lock makes up for any loss of strength by what is gained in reliability and better wear at the contact for the blade and so do many others that prefer frame locks. When I give a choice between .125, .135/.140 or .160 plus 90% of the people chose the thicker option for whatever that is worth.

Someone mentioned the thin cut outs earlier on frame locks where the relief is cut/milled out to make the lock easier to manipulate and to spring the lock at the bend. While its true that even the very thin ones (some have been measured to be sub .033 thin here at this cut) are still quite strong in vertical applications of force, the fact is that the thinner it is the easier it is to hyper extend the lock out the wrong way causing the lock to lose spring to properly engage the blade. On some models that are particularly sticky at the contact the added ummph to release the lock can sometimes push this to the actually cause the lock to lose a little spring tension so it won't self correct as well as it should from wear. On most models the pocket clips are placed such as to help prevent this but its not full proof of course. The thin lock cuts on frame locks and no scale to block travel were the very reasons someone felt the need to invent the lock stabalizer. (Rick Hinderer of course)

STR

 

[miyamoto musashi]

*sniff sniff* What's that smell? I can't quite place it. Smells like a... wait, no..... yes... troll?

I love that knife, Death's Head- that's a sweet score. The more Emerson Customs I see, the more I like 'em.

Geez, he has legitimate concerns, why does everyone get labeled a troll for having even a sliver of doubt on EKI quality?

I guess he uses thinner liners on his production knives for more inherent value in the customs. Just my guess, and trying to answer a legitimate question. Sorry if I offended anyone.