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IIRC, small blades really don't sell all that well. It's the medium / large ones that tend to sell the best in general.
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First Look - ZT 0777
- Thread starter Thomas W
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IIRC, small blades really don't sell all that well. It's the medium / large ones that tend to sell the best in general.
I absolutely have no data on the matter. I'm pretty sure that medium blades sell in larger quantities than smaller ones (though the margin might not be that big), but I'm not asking to do either/or, but rather offer smaller blade as well as the larger one. I'm sure that CRK sold a huge number or Sebenzas over the years. Same with BM Alias II. It was offered along with larger Alias I and a I'm sure a lot of people went for it. Strider PT is quite popular too. With XM18, I'm sure those who had a chance to get one from Hinderer went for larger model. First, because they (XM18) were priced the same. Second, many people were thinking about which model would fetch a better price on a secondary market, and went for a bigger one. All I'm saying is that templates are there, design is established, demand is there, so why not to offer smaller on too? There are plenty of people who will not EDC 3.75" blade either because of legal restrictions, environment (larger blade is scarier), or because large knife is not as pocket friendly as a small one. Now this Kershaw ZT looks like something similar to William Henry (WH mostly offers smaller knives). 0777 sort presents class and elegance instead of rough and tough more than any other ZT model.
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Every single knife you mentioned were knives with a price point many times higher than the ordinary $45 Kershaw. Kershaw is a bulk manufacturer--they have to make what sells. I'm quite happy with my Damascus Zing when I need a classy, small knife.
That is a funny comment, because we are talking here about the knife (ZT0770) that will be in the price range way above ordinary Kershaw.
Are you saying that you will have your Damascus Zing as a classy knife for those rare occasions and you will use this ZT0770 for every over rough, tough and dirty job there is?
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The Volt, the Speedform, and the 0551 were all sprint runs made in small batches. None of them were really money makers for Kershaw and you can even ask Thomas about that. When you're talking about the Small Sebenza, the Strider PT, and the 3" XM-18 you are talking about knives that are established models and are dedicated to by the makers. Infact, these knives are usually they're main money makers. CRK still hasn't made that small Umnumzaan everyone on the CRK forum wants. The Sebenza is the best selling folder for CRK so why not offer a small model when you only make very few folders to begin with? Strider makes three sizes of the same knife to fit the size that people want of that style knife. Rick Hinderer's main concentration is on XM's and now offers those in three sizes just like Strider does.
When you are talking about a sprint run you have to realize that a company like Kershaw is taking time out of producing knives that they sell to dealers all over the world. There is limited time to spend on these knives and it's why they take quite awhile to get to the public once they've been introduced. To have to retool to produce the same knife in a smaller version would cause Kershaw to flat out lose money. The sprint runs that are released are basically for the collectors. Like I said, they make little to no money on them, they are a big eater of time and manpower, and they are always produced as a small run because of these factors. As far as ZT's coming in smaller sizes, well I just don't understand what the point of that would be. ZT is marketed heavily as folding combat knives and I'm not aware of many combat knives with a 3" blade. The 0551 is the only exception to the rule thus far because the 0550 is going to be released, but it will be the same size as the 0551 and I highly doubt you will see a smaller version of that knife.
Kershaw does take care of customers who want smaller bladed knives as they have many in their lineup, but again these are knives that are well known and established as regular production Kershaws that you will always probably be able to find.
When you are talking about a sprint run you have to realize that a company like Kershaw is taking time out of producing knives that they sell to dealers all over the world. There is limited time to spend on these knives and it's why they take quite awhile to get to the public once they've been introduced. To have to retool to produce the same knife in a smaller version would cause Kershaw to flat out lose money. The sprint runs that are released are basically for the collectors. Like I said, they make little to no money on them, they are a big eater of time and manpower, and they are always produced as a small run because of these factors. As far as ZT's coming in smaller sizes, well I just don't understand what the point of that would be. ZT is marketed heavily as folding combat knives and I'm not aware of many combat knives with a 3" blade. The 0551 is the only exception to the rule thus far because the 0550 is going to be released, but it will be the same size as the 0551 and I highly doubt you will see a smaller version of that knife.
Kershaw does take care of customers who want smaller bladed knives as they have many in their lineup, but again these are knives that are well known and established as regular production Kershaws that you will always probably be able to find.
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I don't feel that the 0777 is meant for rough and tumble type stuff. Also, what I meant to say as well was that every knife you mentioned has a larger size, not just a smaller one. As an example: Tim Gaylean refused to make smaller pro-series knives from now on because they just didn't sell compared to the larger-sized knives.
Not saying that ZT won't make an ultra-high-end small knife, just disagreeing with your statement that there's a market out there for them.
EDIT: Tony you elaborated much better. Thanks for the explanation.
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I'd also just like to say that just because you add some Damascus to something doesn't make it a dainty knife. That blade is meant to be used and with the steel they used for the cutting edge, it was made to be used hard. It may have a certain look to it, but that doesn't mean it's a dress knife. Carbon Fiber, Ti subframe lock, with kickass steel does not say dress knife to me.
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I know what you mean. I just wouldn't go batoning with it when I pull it from the box
I'd love to EDC this knife though.Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. I'm sure that $amount per knife isn't that bad. No one would produce a knife if they will be loosing money on it. Their margin might get low if there will be too many Blemishes that they would have to sell below the target price. And I'm sure that the perfection that Kershaw is trying to bring to their customers does cost them money, and I'm thankful for Kershaw dedication. I myself owned couple of those factory seconds. On one I couldn't even find the blemish.
So again, ZT0770 is just a rough and tough combat knife? Really? So all those damascus lamination, 3D milling of handle and pocket clip, carbon fiber are there to make knife better for combat and tough use. Sure there are plenty of people here that say that every knife is meant to be used (even if you paid $10K for it), but I will bet you that more than 50% (probably a lot more that that) of those ZT0770 will be just safe queens.
That's the thing. Many of us (including you I'm sure) want something better than "regular production Kershaw".
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Ask Thomas about the Volt and how much of a money maker it was for them. Infact, ask Thomas about boutique runs in general and how much revenue they bring the company. You will be surprised.
There is no lamanation on the 0770. That is composite blade technology. If it wasn't Damascus and it was just another common steel would that make you feel different? Damascus isn't just saved for art or gentlmens knives. It's just the spine of the blade. 3-D milling of the handle was done on the 030X series as well as the new 0560 and 0561 so what does that have to do with anything? And what about the pocket clip says to you that it's not just another EDC? Rick Hinderer offers a CF scale for the XM, does that make it knife that shouldn't be used hard? I want to understand where you're coming from, but I just can't. It's ZT and ZT means bigger hard use knives to me. Of course some of these are going to be safe queens. Hell there are regular production Kershaw Leeks that guys keep as safe queens. It's just the way it is. Ask Jimmer if he thinks his design was made to be used or put in a drawer. I agree that this 0770 does offer more in the way of looks than other ZT models, but it looks to me that it's a knife that was made to look good while you're using the hell out of it.
I do want something better than regular production, but I take what I can get. Kershaw has always been about making great affordable knives. I love the fact that they are slightly shifting gears and starting to produce some higher end knives, but these knives aren't usually full production knives. Look at the higher end offerings that Kershaw has offered in the past. Off the top of my head I can say the Ti Bump, Ti/ZDP Leek, Ti/ZDP Mini Cyclone, Ti Tyrade, Ti JYDII, Volt, Speedform, and the upcoming Tilt are really their higher end offerings and each one of those has been a boutique run consisting of fairly low numbers. None of them have been offered in multiple sizes in the same high end materials. The sprint runs are popular and they go fast, but I don't think Kershaw is ever going to retool an entire part of their production floor to produce the same exact knife in smaller proportions to meet the demands of very few. On the same note, since Kershaw has never gone that route I doubt that ZT will.
I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm just trying to drop some honesty.
Jason B.
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Personally all the Ti, carbon fiber, damascus, and super steel would make me want to carry it more often and use it like any other knife. I no longer buy knives to have them lead a boring life, sure I could do all my cutting with a ugly $30 knife but why not do things with a little style?
For the same reasons someone buys the sebenza and beats the tar out of it is the same reason I would use the 0777- its a fine cutting tool with class.
For the same reasons someone buys the sebenza and beats the tar out of it is the same reason I would use the 0777- its a fine cutting tool with class.
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First, Thomas has posted before that many sprint runs and boutique designs (including many models put up for Knife of the Year) have not been money makers.
Knives like this are designed to push the envelope and show what Kershaw is capable of. Initially knives like this are meant to be showpieces to get attention. This isn't to say that they aren't excellent or practical knives. All the exotic high end materials are there help get the word out about new design features and technologies. If they put the adjustable subframe lock on a $40 knife it wouldn't get the attention. On the 0777 it is hard to miss.
The Devin Thomas Stainless Damascus and N360 help show the amazing things that can be done with composite blade technology and really showcases that the blade is mad of two separate materials.
If ZT sells the 0777 for what most of us would be willing to pay it seems pretty unlikely that they would make a profit. Especially if you consider how many mid-priced Kershaws could probably be built out in the same amount of time as one 0777 will likely take.
Try to remember that a run of even 1000 knives is a pretty insignificant number, think about it, there are over 8,400 Walmart operated stores worldwide. How many knives do you think it takes to keep them stocked? And that is just one vendor. Any distractions from those levels of production is unlikely to help the bottom line.
So why do it? Like I said things like this are showpieces, they get us drooling, they get us fired up about the brand. They help push everyone on their team to do new and amazing things. If the new developments are successful and popular, they can be refined and work their way down the line (I think the adjustable subframe lock will be one of those things).
What did all that have to do with making this knife smaller in the first place? Like I said this is a showpiece (even if it ends up being a regular production piece). It needs not to just stand out, it needs to jump up slap you in the face, and tell you that you damn well better not leave without one (just looking at the pictures, I think the 0777 does this). It is meant to be a flagship knife. When you get your hands on one you are meant to desire it. If you are going to go through all this trouble to make it, it should be big enough to have some physical presence.
If the design is practical to produce and there is demand, smaller sizes might happen.
Look at the Speedform and the Speedform II. The Speedform is a pretty amazing knife, and from what I've seen the Speedform II looks to be better than a "regular" production knife. If it sells incredibly well, and enough people scream for sprint runs are always possible.
Another example might be the 0300 series, definitely popular for such a big knife.
Enough people bough them AND said "this is a great knife, I'd love a smaller version too", resulting in the 0350.
If we buy every 0777 ZT can make, maybe they'll think about a smaller version. Who knows?
In the meantime please appreciate every sprint, boutique and just plain crazy knife Kershaw does, appreciate all the early info they share with us and stop second guessing.
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I have no doubt that boutique 1000 pieces limited runs with strict quality control don't bring in as much as the rest of the production line sold in hundred thousands. If Volt would be offered with plain M390 blade and solid Ti framelock, do you think Kershaw will be loosing money on it? What would make is so different from BM 755 MPR (currently sold for around $150), for example? Again, I'm sure there is a reason why Kershaw does things the way the do, and I really don't want to go into production costs and such. Let's just leave it at that.
If it would make the point easier, just forget about Volt, or even ZT0777. My point was only to say that there are many people out there who would appreciate, carry and use smaller High-end Kershaw knife. The last were Ti/ZDP Leek and Ti/ZDP Mini Cyclone and those were discontinued several years ago. ZT0777 just looks like it would make a great "gentleman" knife, if it was smaller and could be a nice alternative to WH for example.
All I'm saying is that you don't need all those pretty materials and fancy milling to make a tough combat folder. ZT0770 takes Kershaw line to another level. My other point is that the price and beauty will make many users think twice about what they should and shouldn't do with it. Of course every maker wants to see their knives used. I don't know if they what to see them abused, but it's not really the point. Sure there are plenty of people who get "hard use" knives only to put it in the drawer, that isn't the point either. If you're saying that ZT0777 isn't much different from ZT03XX, well I disagree. Think about what would happen if you snap the blade (or just the tip). ZT03XX would be much easier to replace, than 777 and I'm sure a lot of people will think about it when using their knives.
The same here. I take what I can. The difference is that I'm sure that you're more comfortable carrying larger blades than me (and many other people). I can't really "take" that smaller ZT0777, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
I understand. You have your opinion, I have mine, they don't need to be the same.
I have no clue... Oh yeah, I remember. I guess because 777 is ZT, all ZTs are tough combat knives. Smaller ZT shouldn't happen, because small knives can't be tough or used in combat. I guess something along those lines 
That's one of the points to show how manufacturer's can't please everyone.
I never really liked 300. Not even because of the blade length, but rather because of the looks, and all the handle "fat" (I'm sure it is comfortable). 350 didn't excite me either for the same reasons, plus instead of the sexy framelock there is just a linerlock (I'm sure it is just as strong).
I sort of liked Speedform, but don't want Speedform II. It just not the same thing, not the mini-speedform, if you know what I mean.
Hey... I sure appreciate the beauty and it doesn't hurt to ask something what one desires. Go to the Busse land on BF and take a look at their "folder death-chat"
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I see you haven't met people who've paid $600+ for a Hinderer XM-series and used them hard. I myself have used the XM-18, as well as a $700 R.J. Martin Overkill.
There are some knives that truly seem to serve no purpose other than to look flashy(think William Henry knives at $1000+), but I don't feel this knife is one of them. Granted, it's doubtful anyone would pry with this knife like they would the 030X series, but I feel that's more because of its limited status than anything else. Make it full production, and you'll probably find a picture of someone who killed his computer monitor with one:thumbup:.
Rest assured however, I'm going to use this knife. Though it begs the question of just how much "combat" these knives really see. I certainly hope the likely prospect of shoving my 0551 into someone's skull isn't a prerequisite for owning the knife.
You see, I never said that ZT0777 can't be used hard. All I have said that most of them probably end up as safe queens. I myself carry and use my custom Yuna often enough.
That's my point exactly.
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I think I see where you're going with this. This knife should have been released under the Kershaw name. The Zero Tolerance motto is "Serious Missions, Serious Knives", and this knife simply isn't serious enough. G10 dropped on the floor would get a scratch or two, while Carbon Fiber could risk cracking and chipping, though Strider uses it in their customs(not production). And damascus only exists for the looks.
Certainly, this knife strays too far from practical use to be in the same category as Zero Tolerance.
00ChevyScott
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For those with legality issues, sucks for you? Sorry, but I bet at least 60-70% of members who have seen this blade would easily prefer the larger size. ZT is trying to please the most people and not to mention their usual style of blade is in the 3.5"+ length.