fixed blades in boy scouts?????

Personally I think the largest knife you need when in the Scouts is a Swiss Army Knife.

That's what I had and I can't really see a need for more. That's just my $.02 :)

Cheers,
David
 
well i was a boy scout for 6 years ago to just resently and i when i went to normal camp outs just carried a lock blade for wood working and a swiss army for everything eles...but when on venture scout trips...much more rugged ranged from willderness surviles to everyone can only carry 3 things.....i carried a fixed blade i found it much more usefull in almost every situation....no one said anything to be but then again i was also holding a ax and a knife...Mmmmm :D
 
Fisher of Men said:
Personally I think the largest knife you need when in the Scouts is a Swiss Army Knife.

That's what I had and I can't really see a need for more. That's just my $.02 :)

Cheers,
David
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David, I presume you would, therefore, pitch the butcher knife and paring knife from the BSA Official Chef's Kit. Frankly, I find preparing food from scratch for 8-10 people to be tough with a SAK, although I have done it.

But it's all hypothetical because, without handling and passing a fixed blade knife, Scouts cannot earn the BSA Tot'N'Chip. Without a Tot'N'Chip, a Scout is prohibited by national BSA policy from handling ANY edged tool.
 
Got a better idea than the Ka-bar (though they are great). Issue the kids a Becker C/U 7 and a Leatherman to go in the little pouch in the side of the sheath, with that combo you'd be ready for anything. There's nothing wrong with SAKS and Boyscout knives other than the fact that they have crappy blades and useless tools ;)
 
Personally, I think the existing camping methods of the BSA are way too destructive in most cases. Some troops still camp like my father did 40 years ago - cutting down anything in their way. I have seen them "improve" campsites in wilderness areas - it isn't pretty. This was done, by the way, with machetes - so some troops sure don't have a problem with fixed blades. Protesting to their leaders does no good - they are convinced that they are doing the right thing.

I used to carry a fixed blade when camping, but I found that I never used it. An SAK or Leatherman has always been enough for me. Now, I agree entirely that one should have the RIGHT to carry a fixed blade, so if that works for you, good.
But please, do not unneccessarily use that blade to cut saplings or brush, mark trees, build pointless structures, etc. Modern camping techniques and equipment allow one to camp safely and with adequate comfort almost anywhere with little or no damage to the land.

Actual wilderness survival is another matter. If you are stranded in the wilderness, without adequate supplies, you do what you have to - build a shelter, build large fires as a signal, poach game, etc. A fixed-blade is a valuable tool in this situation.

I do believe that survival skills and old-style woodcraft (as used by the pioneers and now by the BSA) are worth knowing and practicing. But they should be practiced on a "tame" campground on the corner of somebody's farm (or wherever), NOT in the wilderness.
 
I've never seen the above described behavior in Boy Scouts, even in the worst, most undisciplined, troops. It goes against the Outdoor Code. Anyway, carrying tools doesn't mean you WILL use them or use them in the wrong context.

Alox said:
Actual wilderness survival is another matter. If you are stranded in the wilderness, without adequate supplies, you do what you have to - build a shelter, build large fires as a signal, poach game, etc. A fixed-blade is a valuable tool in this situation.
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You never know when you are going to be in a survival situation. If you did it would not likely be a true survival situation but just primitive camping. If "Be Prepared" means anything, a Scout should carry the means of survival. That also means thing like carrying a first aid kit on your belt. I was usually the only one that did that and for hikes everyone else had kits that they just left at camp. The question to answer is whether Scouts should be a group of true outdoorsmen or a simply social camping club.
 
I certainly never EXPECTED to see it either, but I did. They did more damage in 48 hours than the site has endured in the last 5 years. They did clean up their trash, though, and the destruction was, paradoxically, neat and ordered. It wasn't random destructiveness, it was a misguided attempt at improvement of a place that didn't need any.
 
ratstuph said:
So I guess that means the Hubertus Boyscout knife with saw blade and (as luck would have it) lever activated main blade would be out of the question?
http://www.knifeshop.com/shop/morocutti/produktgrafik/produkt/69.120.hh.11p.jpg

I always wondered what "boyscouts" needed an automatic blade. Perhaps only needed to get those quick and tricky snipe.
Rats...
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Not a "Boyscout" knife, any more than most 'scout" or boyscout" knives listed on ePrey are officially sanctioned knives.

We took some young chickens to a camporee so when young Scouts from other Troops were sent looking for "snipe," we could accomodate them. Also had examples of Acme Universal Smoker Shifter, Acme Universal Sky Hook, and A-1 Elbow Grease.
 
I'm an adult leader in our troop and sheath knives are specifically listed as no-no's on each trip's bring / no-bring list. Our Scoutmaster(s) wants it that way and frankly, I've never heard any grousing from any of the kids.

To me, there are two primary reasons to restrict the boys to folders.

1. The whole "mine is bigger than yours" thing that was discussed above is straight on. You'd have some of the boys bringing in large Glock knives (or similar) just to show off.

2. The sheeple factor is also big these days. Our outings get the boys out and around the general public regularly. I can only imagine the reaction we'd get in some areas if we brought 20 guys in with large sheath knives (that you know would occasionally be unsheathed for .... whatever).

Anyway .. my 2 cents,
Razz
 
Hey Razz...

Now don't take this the wrong way, however.

Your troop has essentially been neutered and pussified. Your troop leader, I'm sure he is a good leader and everything has Caved in and is contributing to the Pussification of our youth..

Instead of banning fixed blades altogether, he should be setting length limits, and teaching the kids about knives and their use. Unfortunately he may not know much about knives himself,, may just have been easier for him to go this route instead of informing himself and the kids under his care.

As far as Sheeple and PC goes.. LOL What can I say.. Would a dozen boys in uniform wearing sheath knives really raise any eyebrows ?

Are 12 boys wearing sheath knives SCARY or look out of place ?

If it does,, then we are in SERIOUS trouble my friends and the END is near!

Conforming to this PC BS is in fact allowing yourself to be neutered slowly but surely...

ttyle

Eric...
 
Gently, Normark. We're talking Scouts here.

To Normark's point, what do you want, a 5" "tactical" folder -- all black -- or a Bark River Mini (what 2 1/2" blade?) with a nice warm, wood handle?

"Sheeple factor" is not dependent on fixed vs. folding. Snap open a CRKT M-16 "tanto" point and you'll get my point.

And Razzierb, any fixed blade knives in the "kitchen" when your Troop camps?
Any battle (hand) axes?

And how do you handle the problem of no fixed blade = no Tot'N'Chip = no bladed tools of any kind?

I recall a recent picture (which I promptly managed to delete) of Scouts in Sweden -- Sweden -- each wearing a smallish sheath knife just behind the point of his right hip. (All I could see was a wooden handle, a cross guard that looked like SS, and a pouch sheath, but I think I have an example of that knife.)
 
Thomas Linton said:
Gently, Normark. We're talking Scouts here.

To Normark's point, what do you want, a 5" "tactical" folder -- all black -- or a Bark River Mini (what 2 1/2" blade?) with a nice warm, wood handle?

"Sheeple factor" is not dependent on fixed vs. folding. Snap open a CRKT M-16 "tanto" point and you'll get my point.

And Razzierb, any fixed blade knives in the "kitchen" when your Troop camps?
Any battle (hand) axes?

And how do you handle the problem of no fixed blade = no Tot'N'Chip = no bladed tools of any kind?
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I'm not sure how to drag 2 sets of quotes in so I'll just pick up Tom's note and answer Normark's questions as well.

First, I'm likely the only knife nut in the troop. The leaders all have knives, but nothing that even remotely approaches a high end production folder. One of the guys thought my Benchmade Dark Star was a "really big knife" when I snapped it open on the last campout .. There's not much you can do about that. Folks react based on what they're accustomed to seeing.

Keep in mind that knives, axes and the like are just a small piece of the scouting experience, not a primary focus. As to setting limits on blade length and then enforcing it ..., that's just one more item to cover on a trip that somebody would have to take care of. Following on my comment about the kids not grousing about the "no fixed blade policy" ... It just doesn't come up. To me, it's just one more thing we don't have to worry about on a trip.

For example, we did a 70 mile bike hike with an overnight camp out a few weeks back. Three of the older guys took a wrong turn on the trail and ended up in downtown Bethesda, MD. I suppose they had their folders, but sheath knives would have stuck out like a sore thumb in that "Starbucks sipping / bagel eating / ice cream licking" trendy area. :D Chuckling .... All that said, the knives could have attracted the wrong attention as well. We eventually got them back to camp. We figured that they did an extra 20 miles that day.

And yep ... we have some pretty crappy fixed blade knives in the kitchen kit. I refuse to use them. I do bring a fixed blade knife, just so I don't have to use those dogs. The axes and hatchets are another discussion. Whoever discussed this earlier was spot on. I've seen 5 axes going at once. A little ole FB knife seems tame by comparison. We do try to supervise pretty closely when the axes are out ... but ...

The guys typically get their Tot'N'Chip at summer camp, so the fixed blade requirements get met there.

I'm not saying that the decision not to let the guys carry fixed blades is right or wrong, but the Scoutmasters in our troop decided to go that route and it works OK. It's honestly not a big deal in our troop. I suppose if the guys really wanted to carry FB's then they could push the Scoutmasters on the point, but like I mentioned before .. it just doesn't come up.

Razz
 
Razzierb said:
1. The whole "mine is bigger than yours" thing that was discussed above is straight on. You'd have some of the boys bringing in large Glock knives (or similar) just to show off.
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Glock makes big knives? The one I have is more of a mid-sized one, and a very light one at that. I don't really know what a Glock is good for since it is too light to chop. I also don't see why one would be "showing off." It actually might be a good blade scaled to a kid. The main reason for kids not to use some knives is the size. Most kids probably couldn't handle an RTAK, for example since the handles are large, the knife is a bit heavy to use, and they probably wouldn't like hiking with one for a few miles. A smaller knife like a Kabar, SRK, or USAF would not be a problem for most kids who are fit enought to be Scouts.


There is ONLY one reason to oppose fixed blades, and that is SHEEPLISM.
 
Benjamin Liu said:
There is ONLY one reason to oppose fixed blades, and that is SHEEPLISM.
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Agreed .........

I just used Glock as an example of a cheaper larger knife. Could have picked another make. The Military spec Glocks that you see dumped on Ebay (Mod 78 / 81) run about 11 1/2 inches.

Razz
 
Bob W said:
It's been that way since I was in Scouts, over twenty years ago.

Personally, I think a small pocketknife is best for a boy to carry. Think of the things a boy is likely to need a knife for at a Scouting event - cutting string, whittling, small stuff like that. A folding pocketknife is more suitable for those tasks.

The troop cook kit probably has all the straight knives you need for chopping vegetables and food prep.

Best Wishes,
Bob
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You REALLY think a folding knife is better for whittling?!?!? I guessit is better if your intention is to have it fold on your fingers. I did a lot of whittling as a kid with my SAKs and I still have the scars to prove it! :eek: :D
 
Razzierb said:
Folks react based on what they're accustomed to seeing.
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Too true.

Keep in mind that knives, axes and the like are just a small piece of the scouting experience, not a primary focus. As to setting limits on blade length and then enforcing it ..., that's just one more item to cover on a trip that somebody would have to take care of.
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First, you are correct to say that woods tools are not "primary." Citizenship training is primary. The outdoor program is simply a method ("First you have to catch them.") Having said that, the knife is the primary tool used in the outdoor program.

As for "cover," we have six Patrols, an SPL, two APSL's, and two JASM's. That makes Seventeen leaders to enforce rules on tool safety. There are, of course Scouters and other adults, who should intervene only when absolutely necessary to address safety issues.[/quote]

To me, it's just one more thing we don't have to worry about on a trip.
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It is also nothing I have to worry about. Leadership takes care of it. I can recall two instances in twenty-two years when a Scouter or other adult has had to intervene on such an issue.

For example, we did a 70 mile bike hike with an overnight camp out a few weeks back. Three of the older guys took a wrong turn on the trail and ended up in downtown Bethesda, MD. I suppose they had their folders, but sheath knives would have stuck out like a sore thumb in that "Starbucks sipping / bagel eating / ice cream licking" trendy area. :D Chuckling .... All that said, the knives could have attracted the wrong attention as well.
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I for one have no problem with altering gear to political realities. I cannot carry a small slip-joint into most public buildings or on a plane. That's just how it is. I would not carry a sheath knife openly in downtown Cleveland. Others here will disagree.

And yep ... we have some pretty crappy fixed blade knives in the kitchen kit. I refuse to use them. I do bring a fixed blade knife, just so I don't have to use those dogs.
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Probably need sharpening, but if the Scouts have not been trained on how to use fixed-blade knives, . . . . Well, there are always electric knives. :barf:

The axes and hatchets are another discussion. Whoever discussed this earlier was spot on. I've seen 5 axes going at once. A little ole FB knife seems tame by comparison. We do try to supervise pretty closely when the axes are out ... but ...
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We have convinced the Scouts, through questions and example, to use saws far, far more than axes. As for "5 axes going at once," axe yards are national policy and one user at a time in the axe yard is also national policy. Five kids in any proximity using axes is unsafe.

The guys typically get their Tot'N'Chip at summer camp, so the fixed blade requirements get met there.
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Kids at that age are sensitive to hypocracy. Also, in my experience, Tot'N'Chip classes at summer camp are like merit badge classes at summer camp - minimal to less than that. Also, if it's not a Troop "thing" it rarely "takes"("5 axes going at once").

There are certainly bigger issues for Scouting.

Razz[/QUOTE]
 
Razzierb said:
I just used Glock as an example of a cheaper larger knife. Could have picked another make. The Military spec Glocks that you see dumped on Ebay (Mod 78 / 81) run about 11 1/2 inches.

Razz
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I guess size is a matter of perspective. I carry, in no particular order, a Kris Cutlery Bpnifacio bolo, Livesay RTAK, TOPS Anaconda, and Busse Steelheart E, so the Glocks look small to me. 11 1/2 in. overall is not big, though one with a blade that size would be. When someone uses the term "big knife" something like a 9+ in Bowie or survival knife usually comes to mind.

Size is also not only based on length. The Ka-bar and Glock are close in length but the Ka-Bar is certainly a bigger and more useful knife than the skinny Glock.
 
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