fixed blades in boy scouts?????

[Benjamin Liu]

Here's another idea. If a BSA Scoutmaster was really concerned with safety, he'd inspect everyone's knives, not for length or fixed vs folders but for quality. A fixed blade must have a safe sheath, for example. A locking folder should have a good lock. Flea-market junk should ba avoided. The same could go for other gear such as boots, backpacks, sleeping bags, etc. They don't need the most expensive gear, just something that will work well.

 

[Ragnar]

I was going to have a quick look at the forum while soaking up some coffee, and go pack some knives. Now I’ve spent an hour and raised my blood pressure a bit. When I was a kid both knives and Scouting were a large part of my life. When I wanted my first fixed blade knife I remember telling my parents that “when I get old enough to be a Boy Scout I’ll already have my knife”. It was a Mora knife, and I still have it. Later I did join the Scouts and was lucky enough to have a very active troop. We had a troop campout every month, and most patrols had a smaller local campout each month. I don’t think I ever put on the uniform, or went on a campout, without a belt knife. As far as I recall, all of the other boys and leaders did the same. Since we actually used the things, and had hand axes for chopping, our belt knives were of reasonable size. I tried a KaBar for a while, but it was too big and heavy for constant wear, and too clumsy for most if the things I wanted to do with a knife. The size war thing didn’t exist in our troop. The leaders all wore reasonably sized knives, used them well, and were the kind of men the boys wanted to emulate. Scouting activities taught me how to properly use a knife and appreciate quality over flash. When I worked in the Craft Lodge one summer my Mora was the only knife that would cut leather all day without sharpening. My OBS (Official Boy Scout) Western sheath knife was ok for general stuff, but it wouldn’t cut it for really hard use, unless I spent a lot of time sharpening it. It was a hard choice for a kid. The Western looked a lot better and was Official, but the Mora actually was the better tool. Our troop wasn’t very PC. (In those days we wouldn’t have known what “PC” meant.) On one campout the leaders brought in crates of live chickens which we had to kill, pluck, gut and cook if we wanted supper. I guess salmonella wasn’t much of issue then either.
The current PC attitude of the Boy Scouts is a serious mistake. Fixed blade knives of appropriate size are far safer then folders. By definition folders can fold on your fingers. I’ve had the scars to prove it. A fixed blade is more likely to have a substantial guard to keep your fingers off the edge. For kids just developing knife skills this is important. This PC attitude is evident in other areas of Scouting, but it’s too large a discussion, and off topic anyway.
Fixed blade knives have a facination for boys of all ages. It’s best to teach them what works and how to use it. Another factor is that the opportunity to wear and use belt knives and axes under approval can be a significant draw for the organization. The statement earlier in the thread that the real purpose of the Boy Scouts is to teach citizenship, and outdoor skills are only a gimmick to get participants, is BS, and I don’t mean “Boy Scout”. Certainly citizenship is a major goal, but the self reliance fostered by learning outdoor skills builds the character and resourcefulness that make good intentions effective.
I still get a few bulk orders from Scout troops who have stood up to the trend, but not many. It’s a shame to see the Boy Scouts go down this road. I was amused to see the nice selection of belt knives offered by Boy Scouts Canada. Can you imagine Canadians being less politically correct than Americans?

Ragnar
"A knifeless man is a lifeless man." -old Nordic proverb

 

[Stormdrane]

When I was in the scouts we were issued a 'Totem Chip' card. If you mishandled a knife in any way a corner would be cut off the card. Once all corners were gone, you weren't allowed to carry a knife anymore. We could carry a fixed or folding knife though. I don't remember any other rules about them. Our scoutmasters were housepainters, they had one of those flat front-end vans, and they looked just like the guys from ZZ Top. Good memories of those days. Being in the scouts is what got me into collecting knives.

 

[Planterz]

I was never a Boy Scout, nor would I want my kids (if/when I have some) to be one, because of the Christian-only attitude. But that's another topic.

Banning fixed blades is retarded. From what I can tell about BSA is that they teach things like preparedness and safety. Including knives and firearms. How can the same group that teaches knife safety exclude fixed blades because they're considered "unsafe"? If a fixed blade can be considered unsafe, so can a folder (and probably moreso), therefore they should ban all knives and only go camping yuppie style with a microwave and TV so they don't miss Rosie O'Donnel. It's like teaching them to drive a Geo but saying "don't drive a pickup, they're dangerous because they're bigger". Here's how to shoot a .22, but don't touch a .30-06, because they're dangerous.

To quote Larry the Cable Guy, that's like wiping first then pooping. It just don't make no sense.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

because of the Christian-only attitude.

That is not correct. I was a Scout in the 1980s and remember a page in the handbook of various religious awards. I looked it up and found Baha'i, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Meher Baba, Unity Churches, Zoroastrian religious awards. There are also awards for various Christian churches, using the term "Christian" for anyone who claims to be Christian. The religions themselves work with the BSA to come up with these programs.

 

[lambertiana]

For most uses a folder, like a SAK, stockman, or trapper will work fine. I think maybe part of the reason fixed blades are discouraged is for safety. It is not unheard of for someone to take a hard fall and have their fixed blade pierce the sheath and injure the person (my father has a nice scar from a fixed blade that went through the sheath when he was in a car accident, and I have heard of some pretty serious injuries from someone falling down a slope with a fixed blade on their belt). Given the rambunctious nature of scouts, such an event is within the realm of possibilities.

That being said, I am a scout leader, and I allow fixed blades on our trips. As long as the scout handles it properly, I have no problem with it. I have been working with them to help them learn what makes a quality cutting tool, instead of the cheap Chinese junk they typically have.

Last weekend we had a council camporall (almost 200 troops) at Lemoore Naval Air Station, and the paperwork we got specifically forbade fixed blades. I don't know if that came from the scouting organization or if it was stipulated by the Navy.

Normark - I am doing what I can to develop non-pussified scouts in the state well know for knee-jerk liberal loathing of anything sharp. And I even (GASP!!!) take the scouts shooting occasionally. And not just .22, we do pistols, large caliber rifle, clay pigeons, etc. The best way for me to ensure that I have the largest group of scouts wanting to go on a trip is to tell them that guns are coming along. They really like that. They have fun and I teach them proper safety and respect for firearms.

 

[Normark]

Hey Lamb..

Normark - I am doing what I can to develop non-pussified scouts in the state well know for knee-jerk liberal loathing of anything sharp. And I even (GASP!!!) take the scouts shooting occasionally. And not just .22, we do pistols, large caliber rifle, clay pigeons, etc. The best way for me to ensure that I have the largest group of scouts wanting to go on a trip is to tell them that guns are coming along. They really like that. They have fun and I teach them proper safety and respect for firearms.

Yaaa, we've taken our scouts shooting as well, giving them somewhat of a look at shooting sports.. Mostly pellet guns, slingshots, and have been taking them to to the archery range..

Here is a couple pictures of out last camp in the fall..

Great that you are doing that with the kids..They get sooo much negative input that guns,knives and killing anything is bad..

As we clean the tree rat,, I carefully removed each part,,heart,lungs,liver ect, and explained it to them.. They really studied it,, then we all ate it..

The Swedish M2K knife in one of the pictures was used to field dress the squirrell, was razor sharp, and cleaned up easily..

Do that with a folder,,and there will be stuff stuck in every nook and cranny.

Show them the right way to do things,, and that these things can be fun, educational and are natural to do..

ttyle

Eric...

 

[Thomas Linton]

. . .

The statement earlier in the thread that the real purpose of the Boy Scouts is to teach citizenship, and outdoor skills are only a gimmick to get participants, is BS, and I don’t mean “Boy Scout”. Certainly citizenship is a major goal, but the self reliance fostered by learning outdoor skills builds the character and resourcefulness that make good intentions effective.

. . .

Ragnar

Hi, Ragnar. Love your products.

I agree wiith everything your say but the above. First, I didn't say the outdoor program is a gimmick. I said it's a method -- to me the most important and essential, but that's just me.

"First you have to catch them" is not my statement. It is a quote from BP. No more need be said on that subject since he founded Scouting.

Citizenship education is the primary purpose of the Scouting program. That is not PC, BS, SNAFU, etc. It's a fact. That is in the statement of purposes of the BSA when it was incorporated and chartered by Congress. It is in the explanations of support from the civic organizations that helped get the BSA going. It is in BSA literature for all periods since its founding. BP said it over and over in many different ways.

I have been in Scouting since 1954 and, in addition to being a Scoutmaster, have had the honor of serving on District, Council, Regional, and national training staffs. Most of those I served with are devoted to the outdoor program and feel that many decisions about that program are made by folks with little actual experince with Scouts, much less the outdoors.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I was never a Boy Scout, nor would I want my kids (if/when I have some) to be one, because of the Christian-only attitude. But that's another topic.

Scouting has never been "Christian-only." The Troop I joined as a boy had Christian, Shinto and Jewish members. The troop I currently help has, in addition to Christians of every sort, boys who follow five other faiths. Although we are sponsored by a Christian denomination, the Scoutmaster they selected is a practicing Jew -- a part-time Cantor in his temple.

You could not be more wrong.

 

[Thomas Linton]

. . .
And I even (GASP!!!) take the scouts shooting occasionally. And not just .22, we do pistols, large caliber rifle, clay pigeons, etc. The best way for me to ensure that I have the largest group of scouts wanting to go on a trip is to tell them that guns are coming along. They really like that. They have fun and I teach them proper safety and respect for firearms.

Do you use folding or fixed-barrel firearms?

 

[lambertiana]

Do you use folding or fixed-barrel firearms?

Now that you put it that way, we use both. Most are fixed, but I guess the break-open shotguns are folding. I wonder if BSA has guidelines that discourage the use of fixed barrel firearms? And how would they classify my Luger, since the whole barrel/cannon assembly slides back during recoil? Does that make it a switch-gun?

One of the beauties of the cheap surplus rifles (8mm, 7.62X54R) is that you can let a bunch of scouts blast away without burning up the budget. And the last couple times we have gone out, some of them have shown a knack for hitting clay pigeons, they have done quite well the first time they tried it.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

They might want everyone to have folding stocks.

I was looking at www.scoutstuff.org to find something to get my nephew for his birthday and I saw that they carry the Cold Steel shovel. Rather than a folding shovel they have one that can cut rope, chop wood, and be thrown.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

I was never in the boy scouts, but this rule is foolish.

I would certainly not have anything to do with a group that told me what type of knife to carry.

 

[brownshoe]

When I was a boy scout we took fixed blades. We also threw them into trees, stumps, etc.. We were lucky no one was hurt by accident. You are a lot less likely to throw a folder into a tree than a fixed blade. That's probably one reason that fixed blades are banned at some boy scout camps.

 

[Normark]

Hey bownshoe...

That type of behavior, will not only get a corner or two torn off, it WILL get the knives taken. Such things show me they aren't ready for a knife period, whether it's fixed or folding.

Now on the other hand,, if this is something that is set up, and they are instructed,, then that would be fine. We throw Hawks all the time.

Never a problem,, never a close call...

The possibility of them doing something is not enough of a reason to ban something.
Disrespect of the blade in any case will get them taken..

ttyle

Eric...

 

[Benjamin Liu]

Blaming an inanimate object with no mind-altering or telepathic abilities for people's behavior is focusing on the wrong thing. It is also how the gun control advocates act. The focus should be on the Scouts' conduct.

If the Scouts really wanted to throw knives, the leaders should have set up a proper range, buy real throwing knives, and have a day of knife throwing just like they do with tomahawk throwing. If they don't have the skill, they can make a post on Bladeforums and ask for help.

 

[fracmeister]

Most summer camps specifically prohibit carrying fixed blade knives ... As a Scoutmaster who always camps with the badger Attack not far away, I do know that for what Scouts ususally do in Scout Camps, good folders and even good multi-tools are far more useful. The people on this thread who unequivocally state that FB knives are incomparably better no doubt speak from long experience (as opposed to long windedness ) in treachorous survival situations and extensive backwoods/remote treks. On multi-day backpacks through the woods I encourage the boys to carry a sharp fb knife and/or the best folder they can afford to lose --- but the option falls on the Scoutmaster, not the overhead.

Sure, Scouts has some problems... but I am proud to be associated with the BSA and the young men I get to take camping. So stop grumbling about the rules and do the best with what you've got. Might even be a lesson to be learned there.

 

[rs422]

i am part of a troop and they do not allow the boys to carry fb


i wanted to see what you guys think about this
personally i that fbs should b allowed

They just don't make the boys like they use to, there was a war going on
back then. The boys of today watch to much TV and read the wrong books
in the wrong way. The Indians that help us back then are gone else where
so you can not learn in that way here anymore.

If you give a boy a tool and he thinks it's a toy, he could lose his other hand.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

Sure, Scouts has some problems... but I am proud to be associated with the BSA and the young men I get to take camping. So stop grumbling about the rules and do the best with what you've got. Might even be a lesson to be learned there.

There are a few problems with this. One, the anti-fixed blade propaganda is not factual, and therefore a lie. Fixed blades are actually safer and any safety issues with a quality fixed blade and sheath are also safety issues with a folder. Folders have additional safety issues in that they can fold on your fingers, like my Wilderness Survival Councelor's lockback did to him. Large fixed blade survival knives are usually safer and more useful than hatchets. Scouts are not supposed to lie, so what example does this show them when the leaders spout such nonsense? It is one thing to say that they are against policy, but to write about how they are not useful and that they are dangerous is another thing. Some will be sheeple and fall for it, other will see through it and lose respect for those who preach it. Considering that the official BSA knives are made by Camillus, isn't there a problem doing business with a company that sells useless, evil, dangerous Becker knives? Second, the demonization of fixed blades is very similar to the anti-"assault weapons" propaganda of the government/media/education establishment. It teaches kids that there is something wrong with carrying fixed blades. Third, fixed blades are very useful in survival situations. I'm pretty sure the Scout Motto was "Be Prepared." In short, the rule is idiotic and has no basis in any safety or utility issue. As you can see from this thread and similar threads, these rules sure annoyed many of us when we were Scouts.

 

[rs422]

I want to say something to all the men who give their time helping the Boy Scouts. Thank you, and if you made any mistakes that is OK, just don't do it twice.

Now one day we were in the woods after a long hike, and the men had something to tell US, we were Troop 1200, a high mountain hiking troop with more miles then others under our feet. We always went hiking, rain, shine, snow or sun, nature could not keep us off the trail. The Hells Angles had messed with a Boy Scout troop and disrespected out friendly ways. Everyone else was given a watered down story about what had happen to the boys. Not us, we hiked the hill where the Hells Angles rode bikes back then, we could be next and them men that ran our troop had very powerful men leading us. They could live on the land with little water and survive anything that happen out there. So they told us everything in a very gory detail of what really happen, so that we would know not to go to strangers and if they came after us how we could kill them if we had the heart, but first we had to learn how to run and how to hide and how to watch what is happening, while the runners could run back for help, we carry no weapons, and we do not kill unless we are attacked by animals. The bikers acted like animals, that made them boys,not men. We had to grow up fast straight and strong or be eaten back then.

Well I grew up and found the Hells Angles leader, I was going to kill him. But first I had to make friends with him if I could. It was no problem he like me a lot and told me a lot and I told I had come to kill him and what he thought of that. The look in his eye turned to fear right in fount of his men. They saw what I could do on a skate board and how far I could fall on the hard ground and pop right back up on the board, He said why, and I said some of your boys messed with the Boy Scouts and he laugh at me with all the rest and said, man you had me their, I thought you were a weak boy coming to me, for my power. Then he told me in gory detail what they did to the boys who disrespect the Chosen Few, who lead the Hells Angles back then. To make a long story short, I was so happy that I did not have to kill anyone at all for what ever you do comes back to you.

It is a bad world out their, boys need to be brought up strong for what is coming, and they need to become men before the end. Feed them will and keep the junk food away, see how the mountain men of the past ate and you will feed your bones. Stay away from coffee it's bad on the bones the same with the water that bubbles in a can.

Trail mix is real good for you.

And then you can learn to Storm Hike these hills of this Great Country of Ours, we need new leader in the new world that is coming. If you spare the rod, you spoil the child, and his bones turn to dust and his back can not hold him up straight.

If you are sworn to avenge, then you are condemned to HELL.
I know from experience, that's why I don't care what other think of me, I am a man not a boy.

At last I can talk of what I did and not fear to be killed by an evil one.

Thank GOD, and the great USA, and the real men who made this for us.

Be stong and good and know that God is with you.