Fixin' it? "Code of ethics"

Lorien said:
Fowler paints the picture in black and white in order to make a point. My feeling though, is that context is at the root of questions regarding ethics, and that there are many shades of gray.
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Well put, Lorien.

Ed Fowler from the article in Blade:

"I include a few thoughts on ethics that, while below the web of legislation, are a sure way to make enemies"

"This is the way I see it. It is my personal view and I have absolutely no expectation that anyone should agree with me. All I ask is that you consider what I say and give it a little thought."

While Ed is know to dance poetic, he also carries a set of qualifiers for his muses. :)

Coop
 
I use a good part of my knives, including expensive ones.
I "service" the knives myself (lubing, sharpening, etc...) except from time to time I get them sharpened in a local knife shop or by a maker nearby, because they do a better job than I.
If I had to send back to the USA all the knives made by American makers, for small jobs like sharpening or taking apart cleaning and lubing, I'd go crazy. ;)
 
Hmathews said:
I do have a problem with people that knowingly misrepresent a knife either by saying that the knife is something that it isn't or just allowing the other person to assume that a knife is something that it isn't. It doesn't matter if it is a maker, dealer, or collector, whether the knife has been made by someone else, refinished, reground, rehandled, tightened or whatever, to me it is just wrong. The people doing this have been around as long as there have been people and the only protection against them is knowledge of the product they are selling. They can always come up with a justification for what they are doing and I hope that some day they have a good one.
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What about companies like J.A. Henckels and Buck? Clearly the knives are not made by the original maker, yet they still use his name.
 
cotdt said:
What about companies like J.A. Henckels and Buck? Clearly the knives are not made by the original maker, yet they still use his name.
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Seems like you are stretching quite a bit, with this comment, since most if not all of the dialogue here has to do with custom knives, rather than with production knives.
 
cotdt I don't think anybody expects that Hoyt Buck is still making these knives by hand. Buck is a Company that makes knives. People don't expect that Bo Randall is still making knives either. Randall Made knives is a company that makes knives. Both men have passed away and the companies they started bare their names. I know that there have been some people surprised that other makers aren't making the knives that bare their names. Some have been mentioned in this thread.

I don't know that any are now deliberately misleading people by saying that they make all the knives or perform all the steps in making their knives. Maybe some still are. I know that some have in the past. People just accept that if a custom/handmade knife has a makers name on it, he made it. I had a guy at the last Blade Show tell me that he had just learned that Mr. Loveless didn't make his knives anymore and I wanted to ask "where have you been?" I also had a sales person try to sell me a William Henry knife that he said was custom made by a guy named William Henry. I don't think that he knew any better.

In my opinion it is about honesty and what your integrity is worth to you. With some the price is pretty low. With others it isn't for sale. I don't care what a knife owner has done to his knife, just don't misrepresent it if it is up for sale. If you do you will know that your integrity has been sold, you can then figure out the price......
 
Hmathews said:
I know that some have in the past. People just accept that if a custom/handmade knife has a makers name on it, he made it. ...
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Problem is, that's not "in the past". It still very much represents the rule rather than the exception that if a CUSTOM knife bears a single name, it suggests that a) that person is the maker and b) no-one else is the maker.

As your point below illustrates:

Hmathews said:
I had a guy at the last Blade Show tell me that he had just learned that Mr. Loveless didn't make his knives anymore and I wanted to ask "where have you been?"
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Problem is, there are a LOT more people in that boat than some would care to believe. In fact, I am somewhat embarrased to acknowledge just how recently I became aware of that fact.

Roger
 
Roger when I said the "in the past", I was referring to people that I knew of that have deliberately misled people. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I fully believe that people expect that if a custom knife has a makers name on it, that maker should have made it.

I do know some makers that have "other people" in their shops and I would not doubt that the "other people" are making the knives. While Randalls no longer have the distinction, at least on this forum, of being a custom knife, other makers evidently can do the same thing and their reputation is not diminished at all. I don't understand it, but it is their problem not mine and I don't worry about what goes on in another makers shop.
 
Hmathews said:
Roger when I said the "in the past", I was referring to people that I knew of that have deliberately misled people. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I fully believe that people expect that if a custom knife has a makers name on it, that maker should have made it.
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Gotcha - I think I just misread that part of your post.

Roger
 
Hi Cot,

What you are asking about has nothing to do with ethics.

It has everything to do with a smart marketing plan.

By putting the makers names on the blades and using their designs (for which the makers are monetarily compensated). They try to "blur" the line between the custom and factory knives.

Check out any for sale forum and you will see people listing knives for sale such as:

Onion, Terzuola, Carson, Emerson, Crawford, etc.

Only to click on the the post to find out they are talking about factory knives.

Nothing non-ethical about any of that....purely business.

It is the same reason Bob Loveless, not only in this thread, but in general gets a pass.

The REASON....MILLIONS OF DOLLARS invested in his knives.

As Roger pointed out there are thousands of collectors who are not privy to one of the worst kept secrets in custom knives.

As I wrote earlier when Bob walks away from the shop for good...the secret will be unveiled for all to see. As those with knives that Bob actually made...will be quick to point that out.

And people wonder why custom knives can't move up into a more desired collectible.

Here and on other forums and at shows all across the country, makers, collectors and dealers discuss and debate advertising in more Hunting/Fishing/Shooting/Art/Collectible magazines and events.

Some of these people may actually take umbrage to the fact that the world's most famous living knife maker hasn't made the knives coming out of his shop for almost a quarter of a century.

Perhaps the collective thought would be...if he isn't making his knives...what is to say that others are actually making their knives. Not that big of a leap for the uninitiated potential collectors.

Think about Steroids in Baseball...while its not true...many people would easily believe that everyone cheated.
 
I didn't know that Loveless doesn't make any of the knives anymore, and I'm really surprised to hear that he hasn't made the knives for 25 years.

A lot of collectors' posts I've read over the few years I've been here have pointed to the fact that they are in part buying the fact that the knife was made by a certain individual.

Bob Loveless is iconic in cutlery, and him lending his name and design talent to Gerber, (for a price of course) assigns instant credibility to the brand.
But it doesn't make a Gerber worth $10K, or anywhere close to that. But then again, those knives are production line knives and aren't made by Loveless' protege/apprentice.

The knives coming out of the Loveless shop, I take it, may not even be inspected by Bob Loveless, which means that another individual made the knife and brought it to market independent of Loveless. I guess it doesn't make it any less valuable in the short term, but I take it Les was pointing out that the long term value may suffer as more people become aware of the fact that he doesn't make the knives anymore. Please correct me if I'm wrong, (like I have to ask:D).

Obviously I have a lot to learn, but to me, spending the kind of coin that a Loveless knife fetches has much more to do with 'collecting' than with anything else, ie; quality of the product etc. Not that I have a problem with that or anything. Just seems a little odd that a man's name is etched onto a blade which came from 'his shop', even though he didn't make it- and that the prices for these knives are so astronomically high.

But the market sets the price, so Loveless probably can't be blamed for that.
 
It would be very interesting to hear from someone who actually knowswhat typically goes on from day to day in the Loveless shop. I seriously doubt that Bob Loveless has totally washed his hands of making any knives for the last 25 years.
 
I think of Loveless as a style now, but I am very uneducated on the topic of his knifemaking career past or present, I just know what his knives look like.
 
Bob Loveless never kept any secrets from anyone. Any comments concerning Jim's working in Bob's shop as a secret are pure illusions.

Bob was a true leader in the knife community from the beginning and his contribution to a viable industry is unmatched and greatly appreciated.
 
Ed,

It is not an illusion when you can go to shows and find people who do not know that Bob has not built the knives coming out of his shop for over 2 decades.

While he may not have been keeping a "Secret"...he was not forthcoming with who was building the knives in his shop.

Ed, the question to you would be, with regards to "ethics" is it incumbent upon the maker to provide full disclosure....or incumbent upon the collector to conduct "due diligence" prior to purchasing any custom knife.

If you choose the later, then perhaps all custom knife buyers should always keep "Caveat Emptor" in mind and the subject of "makers ethics" has become moot.
 
If a maker is unwilling or incapable (due to his schedule, etc) of providing the modifications that a buyer wants with his/her knife, then I don't see any reason to consider a new knifemaker working on another knifemaker's knife as unethical. The buyer is is the one who has to use the knife and he is the one whose money is being spent. In this capitalistic society to not approve of this is a hypocrisy. The knifemaker is a knifemaker because of capitalism. It's completely hypocritical and egocentric to assume that buyers shouldn't do this at their will and that other makers shouldn't provide a valuable service. If the value was already being provided elsewhere, the knifemaker making the mod wouldn't have anyone to purchase his services.
 
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