Fixin' it? "Code of ethics"

John T Wylie Jr said:
Serious Question:
Is it fair to have forum readers , or blade magazine readers getting the impression " one maker altering and/or refinishing another's knives is highly unethical."
That is an opinion , is it a fair opinion ? Perhaps , perhaps not .

Ed , in my opinion , it doesn't seem fair to call other makers unethical based on one your perception , that is like a slap in the face to those makers , however it is your opinion and I do thank you for sharing it.
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Good question indeed. I have never found it to be a particularly effective approach to the stimulation of legitimate discussion for the proponent to wrap himself in a cloak of moral superiority. That's a sermon, not a discussion. 'This is how I see the issue - if you see it differently, you are less than moral.' This is my appraoch to "honest" knifemaking - if your approach is different, it is something less than honest. etc.

On the Loveless point, the length of time during which Bob has not been exclusively making his knives is hardly germane. That's the way it is now, and that's the way it has been for a really long time - whatever the precise number of years.

*******

Questions for Ed:

Ed - have you ever had another maker in your shop produce a knife in your style that you then signed your name upon - to the exclusion of the name of the person who did the work?

Would you ever contemplate doing such a thing, even if you disclosed the fact (or at least, didn't hide the fact) that it was actually made by someone else?

If not, why not?

Would ethics / morality inform your decision one way or the other?

I note that on your site (as linked by David on p.2 of this thread) - you discuss the importance of the maker signing his name to the knife. Why is this important? What does it communicate to someone picking up that knife long after the maker is dead and gone?

Thanks in advance.

Roger
 
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In the original post 2knife asks this:
Will you work on anything anyone asks you to fix? If so, why? if not, why?
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It is easy for me to justify not doing the work, but I haven't seen any real good reasons to do the work. I think most people here agree that a knife owner can do or have anything done to a knife that he wants.....it's his knife. If that owner came to me wanting work done on a knife, why would I want to work on (refurbish, refinish, rehandle, re whatever...) a knife that another maker made? Is it just for the money the owner is willing to pay?
 
Hmathews said:
It is easy for me to justify not doing the work, but I haven't seen any real good reasons to do the work. I think most people here agree that a knife owner can do or have anything done to a knife that he wants.....it's his knife. If that owner came to me wanting work done on a knife, why would I want to work on (refurbish, refinish, rehandle, re whatever...) a knife that another maker made? Is it just for the money the owner is willing to pay?
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Maybe a reason to do it would be to help out a local knife enthusiast who needs / wants his knife refinished, but doesn't want to send it out of the country to the original maker who will likely sit on the refinishing job for a couple years and then charge half the price of the original knife for the job?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there's anything objectionable at all in your declining that work. That's entirely YOUR choice as a maker. But if a maker SHOULD decide to accept such a project, I don't believe he should be branded a fiend for so doing.

Roger
 
Bob Loveless is 80 now. I would guess Jim Merritt to be in his seventies. My guess (and this is my take) is that Bob does many things in the shop also, and the pair do different tasks. I truly believe he's a hands-on guy and so is Jim M.

There is a REALLY great thread on the green forum with many shots of the shop and a few of the guys. Bob's clothes and hands are dirty, as much as Jim's. That's as much criteria as I can offer.

My ethics take: Bob Loveless is your average knifemaker, as much as Ansel Adams and Faberge and the other's that were noted in this thread. Yes, the rules change at this level. I will submit that any and all knives that came out of the shops that Bob owned are going to remain collectible and worthy.

One thing is for sure: They are fantastic quality, worthy of a legend's mark.

Coop
 
Yes, the rules change at this level.
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Why should the rules change at that level ? sure doesn't make any sense to have the rules/standards reduced from what one would hold a newer & less known maker to does it ?

If anything, wouldn't it make more sense that a maker ( or artist ) of that calber be held to a HIGHER standard , especially since the $$$ involved is quite high ?

Agreed that they will more than likely increase in value regardless ,.

Personally , if I were buying something for personal enjoyment specifically because I had always wanted one of maker XXX's knives , and then found out it may/may not have been made by him personally , indeed it would sour my purchase.

Anxiously awaiting Ed's response to the questions Roger asked in post #101.
 
SharpByCoop said:
Bob Loveless is 80 now. I would guess Jim Merritt to be in his seventies. My guess (and this is my take) is that Bob does many things in the shop also, and the pair do different tasks. I truly believe he's a hands-on guy and so is Jim M.

There is a REALLY great thread on the green forum with many shots of the shop and a few of the guys. Bob's clothes and hands are dirty, as much as Jim's. That's as much criteria as I can offer.

My ethics take: Bob Loveless is your average knifemaker, as much as Ansel Adams and Faberge and the other's that were noted in this thread. Yes, the rules change at this level. I will submit that any and all knives that came out of the shops that Bob owned are going to remain collectible and worthy.

One thing is for sure: They are fantastic quality, worthy of a legend's mark.

Coop
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Even though they are beautiful knives, they will remain collectible because there are a lot of people who have paid big $$$$$$$$$$ for them.
They will remain collectible because of the logo that marks them.
Change that logo and things are different. Jimmy Lile is a good example.

The same goes for a knife that was rehandled, reground or pimped:barf:
by someone else. If someone paid a lot of money for that knife and there was a vibrant market for that knife, I'm sure some of the modifications would not be pointed out unless they were questioned about the modifications by a seasoned collector. When it comes down to money, most people tend to leave out those little pesky details.

I think as a maker, if someone regrinds one of my knives or does any other modifications to that knife, it will void the warranty. If my name is on that knife, I feel responsible for that knife as long as I am able to make the repairs. I will either fix the knife or replace it. If someone else makes modifications on it that alters the design for which it was intended or makes it where it could be unsafe, it is theirs.
BB
 
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I don't have a problem with what ever a maker decides to do. It is his decision to make just as it is the owner's to have the work done. No rocks being thrown from here at all or judgments being made. Not my job.:D

The only problem that I see in this whole thread is when someone does something to a knife and that can be misrepresented when the knife is put up for sale. This is a problem for me and I am not trying to impose it on anyone else. What if someone brings an XYZ custom knife into my shop that has a busted handle and I put some nice ivory on it rather than recommending that they send it back to the XYZ shop for the fix. Assuming that XYZ makes a desirable knife that is worth fixing up to begin with, the status of the knife I rehandled has been changed. How would the rehandle information be passed along with the knife? Or would it be lost in the shuffle over the years and now that would be an ivory handle XYZ knife.

I built a sporter out of a Springfield 1903 one time. I used a lot of features that I liked on some of the classic sporters that were made in the 1930's. Money got tight and I sold it. The guy I sold it to knew that I was the one that had done the work. A few years later I saw the rifle at a gun show and talked with the dealer that was selling it. He had it marked and priced as a Griffin and Howe custom rifle. I told him that I was the one that had made the rifle and that it was not a G&H at all. I found out quickly that he was an expert. I didn't care that he had likely gotten screwed because of his attitude, but I didn't feel good about the next guy at all.
 
What if someone brings an XYZ custom knife into my shop that has a busted handle and I put some nice ivory on it rather than recommending that they send it back to the XYZ shop for the fix. Assuming that XYZ makes a desirable knife that is worth fixing up to begin with, the status of the knife I rehandled has been changed. How would the rehandle information be passed along with the knife?
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What if you marked the knife as " Rehandled by : XXX " , just a thought.....
 
Roger - you ask has any knife left my shop with my name on it that was not made by me? Yes - one and only one. I allowed a client to put the monkey on my back and ducked out. The knife was sold at a highly reduced price. I did test the blade for edge flex and cut. I have always regretted it and swore to never let it happen again. Like I said I made mistakes and being human probably will in the future.

Naturally feeling successful the client then demanded 3 more knives 'just like it' and I declined and sent him to my student. Like I said it has never happened again.

In the future if a student works on a knife their name will go on the knife along with mine. What was done and by who will be included in the letter of authenticity. Call it ethics ? morality? or simply being honest - I feel the client has a right to know.

There was a time when I let others stitch my scabbards, this was when my shoulder was severely injured and I could not stitch. I laid out the scabbards and had others cut them out because I could not pull a knife to cut the leather. I did do the final fitting. I could drill the holes for the stitching but had to have help reaching up to the lever on my drill press. I also had others sand out fine scratches from my roughed out handles. I did the shaping and final polishing.

I did the forging - grinding and heat treat edge flex on every blade with my name on it in spite of my shoulder.

Signing my knives came about through the requests of clients. There was a time that I felt that my workmanship was signature enough. Paul Basch encouraged me to sign my name again for the benefit of my clients and in order that they could be identified in the future. I came believe the signature is a good thing for all involved. I do sign them by hand, this is my decision over a stamp or etched logo. If I knew what I know now I would have included more information - and may do so in the future.
 
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RogerP said:
And while it should be abundantly clear to this point, for the sake of those that don't read long threads except for the last couple posts, by no means do I consider Krein or anyone else similarly situated to have done anything wrong at all, much less to have committed an "atrocity".

Roger
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Agreed.

Perusing pics of regrinds in his forum, it is mostly production folders. There are some high dollar folders and a few customs. That may not be representative, only what people choose to post.

The buyer can do what he wishes with a knife. Rework by another maker may well have warranty implications, another reason why disclosure is needed in the event of a sale.
 
Ok, just my .02 in regards to this. I had a knife made by bark river that i did not care for how the scales were finished. I contacted several custom makers whom i really liked the way that their scales were finished. I will not say names but one of them did refuse one due to being backlogged and also the individual stated that he does not like to work on other peoples knives. 1 due to artistic reasons and 2 due to not wanting to "mess up the steel" ??
 
Per Loveless, anybody here ever buy a knife from Bob and ask him if he made it? Did he lie? If you didn't ask Bob to his face, you cannot state he is unethical. Let's face it, his opinion of us as collectors has been known since 1982

"Our lives are mired in detritus. Objects own us; they keep us from our creativity. The kind of American who acquires a lot of expensive things so that he can show them off to his peer group and thereby acquire more status is the kind of American that makes me puke."

With this as his opinion, I could very well see Bob letting people assume anything they wanted to about his knives. However, he is known to answer questions, so unless you ask him to his face and he lies, you cannot say he is unethical.

I see lots of Loveless knives for sale, but none of the sellers nor any of the dealers ever disclose who made the knife and usually not even when it was made. Why is this ethical? The Loveless knife recently bought and displayed here, the owner cares not who made it, but he will care in the future. I have seen Delaware Maid knives sold, with a description of how it was actually made by Bob unlike any knife made "recently". So Les you're right on about the market. As soon as Bob dies, the provenance of every knife he ever made will be subject to discussion upon sale. If you think a "real" Lovelss won't command more than a shop made Loveless, you don't know knife collectors. Look at Lile with and w/o the dot. More than a few ignorant collectors have been burned, and Jimmy's shop was always completely up front even in their literature. So caveat emptor for sure...its the way of the knife world.


There are a lot of makers on this forum that are not "sole authors" and only disclose as such when questioned. I'd even venture to guess that open disclosure w/o being asked is the exception rather than the rule. In a discussion about mid-tech knives on this forum, one famous maker of mid-techs stated he could not remember the last time he did a knife from start to finish for his "non-mid-tech" line. This maker certainly does not disclose this on their website or forum.

Think of the poor shopworker, who does most or all of the work, only to have the principle maker take the credit. Who gets ripped off more, the shop worker or the buyer?
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
Why should the rules change at that level ? sure doesn't make any sense to have the rules/standards reduced from what one would hold a newer & less known maker to does it ?

If anything, wouldn't it make more sense that a maker ( or artist ) of that calber be held to a HIGHER standard , especially since the $$$ involved is quite high ?

Agreed that they will more than likely increase in value regardless
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John, I don't condone nor find it sensible, but there are many things in this world that baffle me. :) Your admonition that they will remain collectible underscores my comment as well.

Bobby: At this point, I would think the knives made in the Loveless shop with his logo while he is alive are going to prosper. I do not know what would happen if knives were made beyond this with his logo. THAT would be the comparison to the Lile (with a dot) stamp, but it doesn't apply now. Correct? Did Jimmy Lile have a helper while he was alive?

Coop
 
Jimmy lile did use apprentices...for some of the basic operations
like rough grinding. He was criticised for it publicly, and defended
the practice in Blade magazine (early 80s, as I recall).
 
SharpByCoop said:
John, I don't condone nor find it sensible, but there are many things in this world that baffle me. :) Your admonition that they will remain collectible underscores my comment as well.

Bobby: At this point, I would think the knives made in the Loveless shop with his logo while he is alive are going to prosper. I do not know what would happen if knives were made beyond this with his logo. THAT would be the comparison to the Lile (with a dot) stamp, but it doesn't apply now. Correct? Did Jimmy Lile have a helper while he was alive?

Coop
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Coop, I never said different.
To the best of my knowledge, Jimmy lile had a shop with helpers.

" Even though they are beautiful knives, they will remain collectible because there are a lot of people who have paid big $$$$$$$$$$ for them.
They will remain collectible because of the logo that marks them.
Change that logo and things are different. Jimmy Lile is a good example."
 
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