Flaws

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
29,205
I just read a thread in which a person stated that when purchasing a knife from a certain maker (the maker's name is not important), he expected that the knife would be flawless. This maker's folders are priced in the $500.00 and up range. Over the years I have had quite a few expensive customs (still have most of them), not one of them has been flawless. All of my knives have had/have very minor, or minor flaws. None have ever come with major problems. There has never been a time that I felt the knife should go back to the maker to be fixed up.

It is my opinion that these minor flaws are to be expected in something hand made. Absolute perfection is something that I do not expect. As far as I am concerned, expecting a flawless knife just because it costs a large sum of money is having expectations that are too high.

Of course, as the price goes up, I become less forgiving of flaws. Still, even if a knife is many thousands of dollars, there are going to be certain flaws that I consider acceptable.

What say the rest of you?
 
Keith Montgomery said:
.........This maker's folders are priced in the $500.00 and up range. Over the years I have had quite a few expensive customs (still have most of them), not one of them has been flawless. .....

....As far as I am concerned, expecting a flawless knife just because it costs a large some of money is having expectations that are too high.

What say the rest of you?
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1. NO knife is flawless.

2. The more experience you have with knives, the more flaws that you see.

3. There is a difference between a flaw, and a mistake. Sometimes makers make mistakes that they miss, and have to be corrected. I had to send a slipjoint back to a maker because the edge was contacting the inside of the frame, and rolling. The maker repaired it, even paid for shipping both ways. It is a matter of reasonable expectations, and responses-from and for both parties.

4. Many flaws can be corrected, some can't. At this time, when we have had many mechanisms for folding knives, and adjustable pivot pins, I find it difficult to accept a folder that has front-to-back, side-to-side play or an uncentered blade when closed, or a ball detent that does not secure the blade in the closed position. As long as these issues can be fixed, no harm, no foul. IF they cannot be fixed, I reject the knife.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I thought it of great interest, quite a few years back......that Gil Hibben had a note in his little brochure (aimed at certain collectors, no doubt)......If you want a perfect knife, the cost will be 2x the regular price.

After 25 years in this business.........I consider that a fair expectation.

I feel we live in a world where perfect only exists in the mind, however, SR Johnson and Ron Lake come awfully close!!!! :p

Keith.....I am wondering what exactly those flaws were???

Quality comes from two things........doing your very best, and your very best being the result of a lot of experience.....both of these come into play in the custom knife market.
 
cockroachfarm said:
To ME, that's what it's all about, Tom. An honest attempt to "approach" perfection is what I expect from every maker I deal with.
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I agree that that is what it is all about "an honest attempt to approach prefection." from the makers that I buy from. Pobody's Nerfect.
 
I gotta add this............

I have seen knives many times that I thought were perfect....

but if you ask the maker, he will point out things that we may not or cannot see.

Consider Steve Hoel......He spends well over an hour hand satin finishing a folder blade!!!! :eek:
 
If fixed blades can be discussed in this thread,the closest to perfection I have would be this one.

orig.jpg

orig-1.jpg



Without flaw,I don't know. :)

Doug
 
Good comments all!

I am reminded that this is part of why I can't bring myself to order or commission custom knives (rarely I have broken my own rule). I prefer to buy something already finished that I can see. That way I know what I am getting and whether it meets my standards or not.

As STeven said, standards can change with experience. With more experience I'm better able to separate the unique imperfections that go with something being hand-made from the mistakes a knifemaker might make as a result of poor planning, inattention to detail, design snafus etc.

I think I can dig up a couple of images that illustrate the difference and post them here to see what you all think.

Good topic to discuss, Keith!
 
tom mayo said:
Keith.....I am wondering what exactly those flaws were???
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One knife that I have, the plunge lines are not quite even. On a couple the polish is not the same over the whole blade. A couple have slightly noticeable repairs on the handle material material. One folder had a titanium handle and there was slight discoloration on a very small area. A couple of knives have a dark coloration on the blade next to the guard. Probably from soldering. One has a slight flaw in the damascus used for the butt plate.
 
My opinion...why buy a Ferarri when you can buy a Toyota?

Same with custom anything, you BUY it because it's original and only a select few will ever have it. The flaws that are there are what MAKE that knife what it is, if they weren't there then you probably really wouldn't want it.

I'll take the Ferarri every time over the Toyota.
 
Imperfections are in the eye of the beholder.What is seen as a flaw by one person isnt even noticed by another.As a custom maker I can tell you getting perfect is not easy.We can work on a knife for many hours a day then weeks even months,by this time things have happened that were not seen or just plain missed.Look at something enough times and you dont even notice it anymore (how many of you have really seen your street sign lately..hehehe)..I can finally finish a knife I think is gorgeeous,put it up for a few days and then look it over,then get mad at what is wrong,now I walk away for a few days before final assembly so I see these things ahead of time.Of course this doesnt always work.

When I first started out I would have fits trying to fix something and end up messing more up than was originally wrong,or take many hours out of a day just to figure out that trying to fix it made it worse.I was then told by a well respected maker this and it has always stuck....when making a knife there is a time to stop,even with a mistake or two as anymore work will ruin the knife !!! and that is true.

I dont hold to the saying "it is hand made so I can have a flaw" but I do hold to "This is the best knife I have ever made and the best I can do at this time" I Pray the Lord lets me make the rest better than the last one,as I get older everyday and a persons health is not getting better everyday,things can happen and your not at your peek anymore,or will set you back for a little while.With every knife I hope I learn something and better my skills,some day I will just be hoping to make knives at all no matter what the quality (we all are going to wear out someday).

So I guess what I am saying is "Perfect" To me is the best work I am capable of creating at this given moment in time.Perfection in anything will never happen,otherwise what would keep people striving for it,same with knifemaking,otherwise we would all still be using rocks as they were perfect when they were first used!:D

Just my 2 cents worth.
Bruce
 
#9 Today, 04:49 PM
HTMD
Gold Member Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 320

Good comments all!

I am reminded that this is part of why I can't bring myself to order or commission custom knives (rarely I have broken my own rule). I prefer to buy something already finished that I can see.
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Me too. I am usually happier that way also.
 
tom mayo said:
I gotta add this............

I have seen knives many times that I thought were perfect....

but if you ask the maker, he will point out things that we may not or cannot see.

Consider Steve Hoel......He spends well over an hour hand satin finishing a folder blade!!!! :eek:
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Mr. Mayo has a point!! I am sure to my eye, I can not see what the maker sees. That is really something that Mr. Steve Hoel spends an hour hand satin finishing a blade. WOW!! That is amazing!!

All I know is that I admire what knive makers can do!! Your skills and talent just blow me away. Mr. Mayo, you are one of the makers who's works I greatly admire. Matt Cucchiara's talent in carving titanium..... I have a list. I digress....sorry.
 
Bruce, well put. I think that most makers would agree with what you posted.

Buddy and Anthony, I can certainly understand why you like to get a look at what you are purchasing before you take the leap, but I still prefer working with the maker to come up with something that has a little bit of me in it. Once I decide on a maker, I have faith that the knife I am going to get will meet my expectations. So far I have not been disappointed.

I agree with those that have stated that small imperfections do not take away from my pleasure with or enjoyment of my knives.

When reading the general discussion forum I see a lot of posts that state that if that person is going to purchase a $500.00 knife then it darn well better be perfect. I suppose this attitude is brought on by the fact that if it isn't perfect why spend all that money when a $100.00 production knife will work just as well. Much of it is probably the inexperience these posters have with custom knives, and that if they were to get more experience their attitudes would change. However, some of the posters are collectors/users of custom knives.

I expect my custom knives to be as close to perfect as the maker is capable of doing for the price that the knife was sold for. If I was expecting perfection then I think I would be not be able to enjoy the collecting of custom knives, because I would constantly be disappointed.
 
Like already mentioned, NO knife is perfect. The challenge for me, is to find the makers who can come the closest. :)
 
in custom folders I tend to expect mechanical perfection. I understand finishing imperfections and those are okay but mechanical problems are not.
 
leatherbird said:
If fixed blades can be discussed in this thread,the closest to perfection I have would be this one.

orig.jpg

orig-1.jpg



Without flaw,I don't know. :)

Doug
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that is a nice knife.....but it is extremely simple, with or without the hamon.....try look at an integral subhilt by one of the very accomplished "loveless" makers.......or a Steve Johnson knife. One cannot tell where the solder ends and the blade/guard begins........and a seemingly seamless fit between handle and tang........as much as I appreciate the knife in this picture, a cord wrapped forged knife doesnt not compare IMHO
 
Like already mentioned, NO knife is perfect. The challenge for me, is to find the makers who can come the closest.
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Just quit telling people about Russ, OK? I think we have done enough dmage to his backlog! :)
 
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