Flaws

Man That Dunn is GORGEOUS !!!!!!

Is that Damascus flawed???? NO ! There are no obvious cold shuts or welding flaws which are what makes a piece of Damascus flawed.
Cleston Sinyard (Spellng ?) put it best Years ago..Grinding a bar of Damascus is like opening a Christmas present,You never know what your gonna get when you open the package.!!! With a bar of Damascus You have a idea in your head,you get good welds and all works like it should,only problem is you cannot see what the end pattern will actually look like until you get everything welded up,clean off the scale and WOW,Only now when you grind in the bevels the pattern changes a little,no less WOW just a little different than you started with.A flaw...heck no...it was welded that way and can never ever be reproduced to exact pattern,You have a one of a kind treasure that is all yours and no one will ever have one just like it,Perioed

This is the kind of stuff that has made me deside to just make what I want and can really put my heart into,then hope someone buys it,no bikering over something someone else sees as a mistake....I will from now on let someone have me send them a knife for inspection before they buy(with some kind of deposit so I dont get ripped off) if that would make buying from pictures easier to the buyer.

I think it is time the makers and collecters start working together again,I can remember the days of collecters sitting behind a makers table at shows discussing the makers work and letting them know what they are looking for,even helping the maker out with a introduction to another maker for help,sometimes even buying a supply or toll that the maker cant afford and giving it to him just so his works becomes what they want to see.$500.00 on a good custom isnt much now days,15 years ago it was but now that is a low average on Bowies....Look at it like this ...if I spend 40 hours on a Bowie in a weekPrice it at $500.00,I have 40 hours of shop costs to figure,40 hours of elec.,water for cleaning parts sometimes,rent or part of the mortgage each month,Now I go through about15-20 bucks worth of belts,a couple of gallons of propane,5-10 bucks worth of hand sanding paper,5 bucks worth of glue and pin stock (sometimes pins for a Bowie will take 8-10 hours to fabricate alone),5 bucks for guard stock and more for a buttcap,Handle material costs (some upwards of 100bucks a handle or more),Steel costs.Now you have the cost of up keep on the machines which you have bought already,Me I am over 10,000 bucks worth of machines alone (not counting what I have made or was given)files,see the list can go on and on.But when that Bowie is finished I might clear $200.00-$250.00 for my time and knowledge,This isnt much to live on you know.Now the maker wants to go to a show,This has to come out of sales to at least break even for show costs,if the show costts amounted to 1000.00 bucks you have to sell 4-5 Bowies to break even,that is everything you profited for a month,not to mention the many makers who dont sell any knives at a show (man telling the wife you spent the rent check and didnt sell anything is hard on your relationship) you could have gave all those knives away at home and made the same amount of money,or not made them at all and been ahead the money you spent making them that you didnt need to spend in the first place,but we love making knives and do it for our pleasure,Plus by doing this you could have gave the wife and kids a weekend spent with you that they would usually enjoy..Some of us do it for a living and a show can cost us the rent for the month and food,clothes and all that which goes into having a family.(Not everyone can even get a show table,I have been on waiting lists for 9 years and have had one call to get a table,not counting blade which had the tables when I did my JS Judging,So not all makers can even get the chance to set up a table as the shows fill fast and if your not a big name they put ya on a list and forget ya).Now when you make a mistake towards the end of the final assembly and it is now FLAWED,Do I throw out a few hundred bucks worth of time and effort and shop costs or do I fix it the best I can and send it out the door ? this is a question all makers have to decid at that point in time,allot of us eat that knife and starve for awhile trying to get another done correctly,but was it really a flaw to begin with,most of the time the Maker is harder on his work than any collecter will ever think about being,so he can probably tell you it is there long before you see it.Now if the flaw is a design idea of the makers and you dont like it,no that is not a flaw but a makers dream,look past that and see if the knife is a knife and do you like the main basics of the makers work,if so give him some design ideas that you would like to see and then see what he comes up with.Like I said before,us makers cannot read minds and unless someone spends some time with us we wont know what you want.Also,Buyers would gain allot by checking out a symposium or two,even hang in the makers forums and learn just what goes into the construction of a knife,some buyers ideas are not as easy or fesable to do either.We gotta work together or nothing will workout or be that perfect knife you are looking for.Rememeber perfect is only in the guy looking for what he see's as perfect,no two people think of what is perfect as the same thing.Other wise we would all drive one brand and make of car,marry only one woman(as they are all different)have only one kid,dog,the same house,and the list can go on...No 2 people look at anything exactly the same and that is what makes us humans so great,the right of choice....

Let's all quit looking for the Flaw and instead Look for the over all Beauty in the work and we will all be better off.

Sorry to ramble,to much time to think lately...Just my 2 cents worth,please dont hate me..
Bruce
 
Im in 100% agreement with a lot of people on this thread, but bruce really hit home for me....

If i had spent a huge amount of time developing that feather damascus billet, then been told that the resulting pattern itself had a flaw, and not the steel, id probably have just said "thanks for the opinion" and moved on to the next person who had an opinion....you know what they say about opinions...
 
One little more comment...
To those of you who inspect a knife purchase under magnification,Please take into account that most makers do not use this when making a knife and thus dont see what you see,and if you do inspect under mag,tell people when complaining about a mistake you found,not all buyers will use a jewlers loop or any kind of Mag when looking at a knife.Thus your perfect and theirs is completely different.
Bruce
 
Bruce Evans said:
One little more comment...
To those of you who inspect a knife purchase under magnification,Please take into account that most makers do not use this when making a knife and thus dont see what you see,and if you do inspect under mag,tell people when complaining about a mistake you found,not all buyers will use a jewlers loop or any kind of Mag when looking at a knife.Thus your perfect and theirs is completely different.
Bruce
Click to expand...

If the knife is for use, I don't suppose the aesthetics going down to a point of magnification matters so much, but if it is an art knife, any experienced collector worth his/her salt will use magnification, especially when engraving is involved.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I'm don't disagree with much that has been said, but I would like to add my thoughts.

There are several kinds of "quality". Fit and Finish, functional design, aethetics design.

I went to blade in June I handled a fair number of folders that were $500 and over, Many of those, OK almost all, had what I felt where unacceptable fit and finish issues. My standard was if it's more expensive then a sebenza, it should have as good if not better F&F and as good if not better functional design.

Aesthetic design is so subjective I don't think it can be measured and plays an equal role. Many folders I never even looked at because I didn't like the looks of them, even if they might have had "perfect" F&F.

So, yes in a nutshell I agree, $500 should give you perfect F&F, depending on how you define perfect.
 
Bruce - I don't buy straight knives anymore, but from a buyer's perspective, it really doesn't matter how the knifemaker sees it. It is a very competitive market - the more competetive, the greater propensity there is to see a "flaw" and dismiss the piece and/or maker.

I design buildings for a living and have been in the practice side of the business for 23 years. Architects greatest compliment for a job well done often comes when a building is finished and occupied and they can say, whew!, I didn't get sued. It is a tough, tough business and architects make the least amount of money of any licensed profession (profession in the traditional usage) by far. Owners constantly beat them down and hire managers to help them do an even better job of it. Most architects are too busy "dreaming" to worry about it much....until they go out of business. At least a flaw in a knife won't get you into a lawsuit. So, all I can do is pull out the violin on this one.

Regarding flaws (and I buy only stock removal folders) - a flaw is a bad grind (ugly), poor lock function (death knell - if you can't build a lock you shouldn't make 'em), poor shaping (ouch!) or bad design (can't use the thumbstud or hole because the scales are shaped incorrectly or clip is mounted too low). All of these are reasons to send a knife back, IMO, rather than "live" with them (or buy it in the first place). It is my money and I am the judge of "good" and "bad" on my purchase. All my current custom knife orders are with Phil Boguszewski and Scott Sawby - both excellent knifemakers and both willing to "work" with their customer no matter how many times I change my mind!

By the way Kohai999 - I agree with you, the handle on the Dunn is inappropriate for the rest of the knife design.
 
Perfection, well I guess it is in the eyes of the beholder. The most I have payed for a knife is about $500 if I remember correctly, some would feel I have spent a lot on knives, others would say I am on the low end, but I do enjoy quality work. When I ask a person to build something for me I expect them to do the best they can, simple as that. I will have looked at what they have produced in the past and from that I form an opinion. Our communication will lay out what the item will be (best of our understanding), how much it will cost and when I can expect it. From that point, yes things can influence my vision, but I still try to judge the finished product based on the original vision. If it meets that vision, I call it perfect, could someone poke holes it, very likely, but to me the maker delivered what I asked for. Steven
 
I agree that the higher the price the more scruteny it should get,just saying that if a maker doesnt use mag,it shouldnt be judged that way..Of course I dont know of any high end makers not using mag.I do know that they dont use mag when judging for the masters stamp.

Architect,I also agree it is your money and you should spend it with and how you want.I am just venting some of my thoughts on the mistakes (Flaws) issue from a makers thinking.Makers have got to work with buyers or they will never make it in this business just like you in yours.But I bet when you was just starting out you had help from people to avoid the mistakes in your drawings so you wouldnt make them again,Did you just give all your designs away when you first started,bet you at least made something for them like a pay check from a company,me I just want to get some money back for money spent.I quit sending out anything with what I thought was a mistakes years ago.Guess what I still get them without knowing it most of the time.When a knife is hard finished it is hard to go back and change something,it means a complete new knife has to be built,that is unless you use screws and no glues.I will work with a customer all they want,but if what they want is unreasonable or what I consider a desighn flaw I stop there.We all have our own idea of what is our excalibur,and believe me there are people out there without a clue to what makes a great knife design,just as I am sure you run into with your proffession.I dont say that mistakes are OK,But if I wasnt afraid of a mistake I would only make knives with a guard and a stick so I only had to deal with the basics,but I like pushing myself to gain knowledge and try new things.I dont charge high when I am learning but I do still need to eat.See if I only sent out a perfect knife I would just give up and go get a real job like you have as that will probably never be made in my lifetime.This just goes back to my other post saying...

Perfrct is only perfect in the eyes of the man making it or buying it,and If you like a maker give some advice and discuss things with him,we are still learning and I hope I never do quit learning.Lawsuits against knifemakers...I see this happening soon,just like anything else someone will blame us for something happening and take us to court.I bet in 10-20 years from now people will still be discussing this topic and what we see now will not even be discussed as it will be a basic and they will see other things as mistakes.Just like the makers 20 years ago didnt expect knives to be being made to the quality they are today.
Bruce
 
One problem is with the word "flaw". My dictionary defines it as

"An imperfection, often concealed, that impairs soundness."

Most of the "flaws" discussed here do not impair the soundness of a knife. They are cosmetic imperfections.

No one wants a flawed knife.

Cosmetic imperfections are what make us human. :)
 
When you spend a significant amount of money on a collectable you are investing in your image as well as your finances. For physicians there is a golden rule, "First do no harm". For a custom knife maker a golden rule could be, "First don't embarrass your customer". The worst thing that could happen is that your customer buys a knife that he feels compelled to hide or dump because he wouldn't want someone to see it and know how much he paid for it. You can't help a guy who is obsessive-compulsive, but you don't want his ignorant friends to call him a dork.

How the knife looks when he shows it to his friends may be more important than how it looks to him or how well it works. The customers have flaws as well. Think about their flaws when you look at your knife's flaws.
 
I want to thank Bruce E. for bringing this thread to my attention by his post in shop talk, as a maker its very interesting reading and educational to see what collectors look for in a piece.
I have a question, do most collectors just judge the quality of a piece by its fit and finish, or do they also judge the piece by the makers ability to create and make the whole piece along with the fit and finish.
My meaning being, is a piece made entirely by one maker, including his own damascus, his own heat treatment, etc,etc have any reflection and add appeal to the knife , or does it all just come down to the final fit and finish no matter who made it. Again I'm just curious.

Thank you,

Bill
 
Wow, there's a gold mine of good opinions based on experience in this thread. I'm learning a lot here.

For the record, I don't consider the damascus (or the handle design) on the Dunn knife to be flawed though I understand some folks might reject it based on that.

Examples of definite flaw issues that have come up for me over the years:

1. Fossil ivory pinned so tight (maker didn't leave 'room' for an organic handle material to 'move') it quickly cracked apart when taken home to a dryer climate. Maker offered to replace (I did not request that he do so) but knife sat in his shop for over a year. I had to get 'vociferous' on him to get it back. Relationship trashed.

2. Finish became quickly discolored on contact with hand - in shape of my palm (yes, you could actually see the outline). Maker offered to refinish, apologized for failing to mention it was a 'fragile finish.' Refinished knife to better than original in timely, professional manner and refused to accept payment. I handle knife often now and finish is fine. Relationship preserved.

3. Handle became loose after I accidentally dropped knife. Discovered it was made loose and packed with wax which kept it tight in the beginning. Didn't mention to maker because I was embarassed I'd dropped knife (slight cosmetic damage). Feel maker tried to hide the flaw from the git-go but afraid I'd be blamed for dropping knife if I brought the problem to his attention - no win situation but he still loses.

4. Maker sold me his 'first folder' for a high price and I was a newbie and didn't know any better. It was a definite clunker with a number of flaws. I had to completely re-assemble knife plus re-bevel the edge. Hollow grind was so hollow that edge and spine were both thicker than middle of of blade! Bought it from a picture on the net. Like I said I was a big-time newbie. Too embarassed to tell maker what I thought but never bought from maker again. That should've never happened. Shame!

5. This one is debatable. I think handle materials were mis-matched with a material bound to shrink over time completely surrounding a material that couldn't take any pressure without cracking. It cracked. Mentioned it to maker who insisted on immediate repair to protect his reputation and our relationship. He researched new stabilization options and re-handled knife to better than new. He remains high on my 'buy-list.'

I'm curious what others think and/or whould do given these 'flaw' situations.
 
Bill, I personnally prefer a knife that showcases the broad ability of a maker rather than one area. So I guess I am saying that I would rate a knife made entirly by one smith higher than a knife made up of pieces that were procurred if that makes any sense. Steven
 
Your list of problems are flaws, except for maybe number 2. However, if the knife is to function as a piece of useable art, a fragile finish would be a flaw. The other problems affected the soundness of the knife. It made them non-functional in many ways.

Per Mr. Buxton's question, buying a custom knife or any collectible is not a logical activity. Everyone has different things that ring their bell. Here is a few of mine.

a. Sole authorship unless the work is a partnership and the knife mark reflects it. No shop hands finishing the knife.

b. No computer aided construction.

c. Heat treat by the maker. I like the different performances that different makers can get with the same steel.

d. If damascus, made by the maker.

e. Stock removal is fine, but if forged, I like as much of the work to be done with the forge not a grinder.

f. Functional sheath. I use knifes. Pretty is OK too, but it should be functional. Actually, unique functional sheath designs trip my trigger. For example, Nealy, Boye and Cowles rate high in my book due to their unique sheaths.

g. The more hand work, the more it trips my trigger

h. Piece of paper documenting the knife.

Like some others, I like to buy a makers work not on commission. I am not a knife maker, but sometimes think I can recognize what I like in other's creations. In anything I buy that is art, or a craft, I like it to be a creation that reflects the maker concept, not mine.

Some imperfections, even in design, can make a knife endearing...just like dogs :)
 
Keith , you are the master of intelligent discussion......

to summarize ............All the makers I personally know offer a full money back guarantee........on everything.......myself included. Currently my sheaths are made by someone else....its still my warrenty.....only exceptions will be obvious abuse and the reaction of natural materials over time.

I would hope that this would at least reduce any customer anxiety.

Just my position, and what I think is a good solution for protecting both the maker and the client.

Oh and Bruce......you da man:thumbup:

Bj.
 
I copied the followin but it seemed fitting.

Introduction
Wabi and sabi are two of the key Japanese aesthetic concepts. Their definitions are not exact, but one can get a sense of them from a short discussion of them. Over time, the two have been combined to form a new word, wabi-sabi, meaning an aesthetic sensibility which includes these two related ideas.

Wabi
Wabi means things that are fresh and simple. It denotes simplicity and quietude, and also incorporates rustic beauty. It includs both that which is made by nature, and that which is made by man. It also can mean an accidental or happenstance element (or perhaps even a small flaw) which gives elegance and uniqueness to the whole, such as the pattern made by a flowing glaze on a piece of ceramics.

Sabi
Sabi means things whose beauty stems from age. It refers to the patina of age, the concept that changes due to use may make an object more beautiful and valuable. This also incorporates an appreciation of the cycles of life and careful, artful mending of damage.
 
August InThe Rockies said:
I copied the followin but it seemed fitting.

Introduction
Wabi and sabi are two of the key Japanese aesthetic concepts. Their definitions are not exact, but one can get a sense of them from a short discussion of them. Over time, the two have been combined to form a new word, wabi-sabi, meaning an aesthetic sensibility which includes these two related ideas.

Wabi
Wabi means things that are fresh and simple. It denotes simplicity and quietude, and also incorporates rustic beauty. It includs both that which is made by nature, and that which is made by man. It also can mean an accidental or happenstance element (or perhaps even a small flaw) which gives elegance and uniqueness to the whole, such as the pattern made by a flowing glaze on a piece of ceramics.

Sabi
Sabi means things whose beauty stems from age. It refers to the patina of age, the concept that changes due to use may make an object more beautiful and valuable. This also incorporates an appreciation of the cycles of life and careful, artful mending of damage.
Click to expand...

This is good !!!

I also wanted to add. If a person gets one of my knives and finds something wrong or something thet don't like about it, I want to be the first to know and will do my best to take care of it.
 
My 2 cents :)

in the eyes of the beholder
difficulty versa ability
functional
mistakes

I don't collect a lot, but as a maker I want everything to be flawless..that doesn't mean it will be..
some of you know I also make sheaths for customers that buy knives from makers that can't or wont make sheaths..this helps me in two ways

1 it's gives me a little brake in between making knives..
2 it shows me what other makers are doing..or more importantly what they are not doing for their own reputations..so I see some of the problems the buyers are facing..
flaws
mistakes
accidents
when we as a maker let things go,, maybe something like , over buffing to save hand work or to cover up a bad or uneven grind or grind marks , this is not fair to ones self
let a lone the customer.

I have a knife here right now I'm making a sheath for, the customer loves the knife.. but it's a knife I would personally not have sold..
things like the handle pin hole is double drilled, it has been fill with something dissimilar to the handle material and now looks like a 1/4 moon beside the pin,,, not a good thing.
the blade has deep grind marks and the maker buffed the heck out of it to try to get them out and just wiped out the grind line which was not good anyway and he just deepened the grind marks. don't be fooled Makers, if you can see it the customer can see it..
from a distance this knife looks ok but WOW I can't believe the basics were just over looked..when we screw up a pin hole, please guys do it over or go to the next size up to fix it don't let it out of the shop this way, this is why these threads have to pop up. spend the time to hand work the blade if you can't grind straight. .
in the eyes of the beholder is one thing but common sence is another..
I do agree the customer is the buyer with the money, if he does not like the piece for any reason he should do himself and the maker a favor and tell the maker and the maker should with-in a reasonable amount of time fix it or refund his money, as said above you may not get more business from the customers you sold to.
this should go with out saying,,
you may want to wonder why,, if you are not getting repeat buyers.,
difficulty verse ability
we've seen here a few times brought up, what's good enough? well the basics should be covered with-in reason and priced accordantly..
but what is a reasonable price? the makers name can play a big part in this,
a man can have thousands of dollars in equipment and not be able to make a knife , but in most cases that maker can make knives and used his money to buy equipment to make his job easier and faster to bump his production up some to make more money that way..
I've seen high priced knives that IMHOP that should not be on the market but they are bought just because of name not ability and on the other hand there are some makers that put out work that is way under priced..

I do believe that some buyers that complain about little things, a lot of them should work with a good maker for a day or so just to get a feel for what he goes through..just to get an idea of what's involved in making then he at least can be a little more diplomatic about what he's taking about.... this all will be a never ending debate solely because one guys expectations will always be different than the others.
but threads like these will help in opening the eyes of the makers to push on, hopefully striving to be the best he can be., but it boils down to, it's the customer we have to make happy, it's their money and if we want it and want it to keep coming, we need to earn it , it's as simple as that..
All Makers should sit back with each knife made and look at the knife and think,, if that knife was made by another maker would you honestly buy it for the price you are asking for it and then ask why? the talent and workmanship in it or the time and expense put in it?
 
All my knives are meant to be used and are priced accordingly.I am still quite new as having only been doing this 2 and 3/4 years.I am constantly working on improving my knives.This thread has given me great insight into when I'll know I'm ready to get into the higher priced/collectors market.So thank you to all who have participated.
 
This is an interesting topic. I find that most every handmade knife has a flaw or two. Some I can live with. Some I cannot. Things I hate in addition to the usual maladies (Crooked blade, poor sanding, uneven grinds) include a poorly marked knife (double stamp, weak or sloppy etch), failure to finish the back of the choil area on a forged knife,and a morticed handle that shows a gap.

Bruce, do you realize that it takes the average guy $1000 to buy one of your $500 knives? I have to go out and make $1000 to spend $500 after taxes, expenses, etc.? Thats not including the price of attending a show.

Thats why us collectors are so bummed when we get a knife with obvious issues.

I just got a beautiful knife in the mail that is beautifully made except the maker used a rather bland piece of straight, ugly wood when he had shown similar knives with knockout pieces of ironwood. The knife wasn't flawed, but the makers choice of materials soured me on the knife, so I guess that is a flaw, too.
 
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