Flaws

Tom,Anthony,
I know what you're saying,matter of fact,when my shiv arrived I had a knife bud friend comment,"You paid what for a sharpened darning needle!" :eek: :D

Fixed blades are my thing for now,Bowies,fighters and sub-hilts,only have one example of a sub-hilt,it's a Jot Khalsa and I think it's nice,have viewed
but never handled an S.R.Johnson and am quite taken with them.

Tom,
Your folders are KILLER,when and if I ever make the move to folders,I'm sure one of yours or Sunfishman's will be my first,I also hear you've been known to make a fighter or two.

Doug
 
If a knife had to be perfect it would never leave my shop.

As a maker I see every imperfection and flaw. They drive me crazy but in order to continue making I had to come to grips with my first statement. As I've grown and matured in the knifemaking craft my flaws and imperfections have lessened but they are still there. I strive to send out a perfect product and if I ever reach perfection in a knife I'll let you all know.
 
When is a flaw a flaw?

The most sought after highest price knives of a maker once they are famous is the first knives with the flaws...Go figure

Bruce
 
Every maker has a drawer or bin full of knives that i am sure most people would pay money to have....if no flaws were allowed out of the shop, most makers would have a full room of their own knives.

Some flaws are different beasts. I would consider a flaw in heat treatment or inclusions in damascus to be deal breakers while purely cosmetic flaws are much more of a grey area. Does a slighly visible glue line mean the otherwise wonderful knife is worthless? it depends who you ask and how much they paid for the knife....Some will want full reconstruction of the handles while others might not even notice the glue line at all...
 
Keith - I think it was a comment I had made that you originally referred to. Having read your comments and those of the rest that have posted, I think you are right. It would be hard to achieve a truly flawless knife, and I guess I don't expect it. A guy was complaining about a "spot" on the blade coating of a production knife, so I was trying to illustrate the differences in finish quality between a custom piece and a production piece and I think I overdid it when saying I expected more from the custom than from the other. I still do expect more from a custom, but realize that it can't be 100% flawless. I know great care and pride goes into the work of most knifemakers, and that's good enough for me!
 
Flaws indeed.This maker commited knifemaker suicide when he screwed people out of thousands.Why do knifemakers do this?
I know the answer. GREED!
What a waste of talent.The maker,by name,Steve Filicietti.
I just recently acquired this Bowie knife,knowing full well the makers irredeemable character flaw.Also,I did not have a real nice example of a Moran Bowie.
The knife is flawed in another way,cosmetically,when I contacted the seller he informed me of a small mark on the guard,so small he didn't even notice it for a year.I couldn't find it either,until viewed under magnification,but once found you always know it's there.It is so tiny it didn't even damage the blueing on the guard.
Anywho,here it is.

filicietti-carbon-2.jpg
 
Since nothing has man made has ever been perfect in human history, it is unlikely that knifemakers will set a precedent.
 
It's interesting that this discussion is about the absence of flaws. Most of what is being discussed are flaws of a cosmetic nature that do not affect the function of the knife. There are many knifemakers who don't try to achieve some high level of finish on their knives. They consider your "flaws" as character. For example there is Fred Perrin's work, the rustic bowie scene, etc. Some of this sells for real money.

Some knifemakers recognize that some pieces are "flawed" by your definitions and sell this work for less...they do have to put shoes on their kid's feet. However in all cases these knives are very useful and even pretty. Sometimes they even sell for a lot of money. I've bought knives from future master smiths that have flaws, file marks, slight design mistakes, less than perfect sheath, but the knives have still had the maker's flair and I thought the flaws were the proud symbol of a hand made product. As someone said in this thread, you can't work on every knife forever there has to be a point where the return for your time is no longer worth it...unless you're obsessive compulsive :)

I wonder how many flaws some of you guys would find in a scagel? Would these flaws keep you from wanting to own it?
 
Real life example:
This feather damascus engraved small bowie is by Steve Dunn. Some folks will remember seeing the knife or pictures of it before. Here is a basic shot of the knife:
orig.jpg


Now here is a close-up of the area in question:
orig.jpg


The situation includes the following:
- ABS Mastersmith and probably most folks would rate him right up there at or near the top of the heap.
- handmade/sole authorship knife with daring and difficult damascus pattern blade.
- expensive - let's leave it at that.
- at the show where this knife was for sale several other top makers mentioned it as "best knife in the room." This is a primo show where no awards are formally given.

Assume money's not a problem - you have the money to buy the knife, no sweat. You love everything else about the knife so it comes down to this one area on the blade. What is your thought process and conclusion?
 
I would buy it without an hesitation.

This knife was one of the most talked about at the Reno show 2 yrs ago. Makers universally agreed that it was a great knife and several told me it was the best damascus in the show.
 
HTMD said:
Assume money's not a problem - you have the money to buy the knife, no sweat. You love everything else about the knife so it comes down to this one area on the blade. What is your thought process and conclusion?
Click to expand...

Money is not the problem. I vociferously disagree with Joss, truth be told, there are many things that bother me about this knife, might as well point them out, for the purposes of discussion.

1. The assymetrical guard gives me fits, especially the pointy ends.
2. Am I the only one that finds the butt of the handle to be uninspired and plain?
3. Knife construction looks like a platform for the damascus and engraving, when the knife is viewed solely as a pattern, again, boring.
4. Specific to the damascus, the "feather pattern" is running the wrong way, entirely NOT evocative of a feather in relation to the shape of the blade. If the "flaw" was in the choil, and I DID indeed like the rest of the knife, I would not hesistate. As it is, this would be the deal breaker.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Bigjohn said:
If that Steve Dunn knife is flawed............Man Ill just have to quit now...:(
Click to expand...

The criteria for a knife that costs $500.00 made for the masses, is vastly different than the criteria for a knife that costs around $5,000 and is made for the most discriminating tastes.

I'm not sure if there is a different way to put that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
The criteria for a knife that costs $500.00 made for the masses, is vastly different than the criteria for a knife that costs around $5,000 and is made for the most discriminating tastes.

I'm not sure if there is a different way to put that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...


I agree with this one...its tough to decide how much of a flaw is acceptable at what level, though....my question would be at what price does a flaw such as the one pictured NOT matter....can that even be quantified?

Flaws are mainly concerned by two people...maker and buyer. It all ends up in the customer's hands....

Hand made anything has this problem.
At what point does a painter's mistake in proportion or light get defined as a flaw vs style?
At what point does damascus patterning become a flaw?
Is an aesthetically plain hamon a flaw since the maker has some control over it?

In other words, when is a flaw the product of the maker vs a product of the buyer's own internal views on what his money should buy?

I cant answer these, but its the kind of thing this thread brings to my mind....my personal view is that if you think something is a flaw, dont buy the knife...im sure most makers would prefer to have happy customers than bicker over the .001" that their grind was off.

Makers still need to make a living. If it took a year to make a perfect knife, they would cost as much as a yearly salary. I think once you count the hours into a knife, most would be appalled at the slave labor they are getting for most handmade knives...if there was a minimum wage for knifemakers, most knives would cost twice as much, haha!
 
This is an interesting thread for sure.....I personally have never considered buying a $5000 knife.......nor have I made one that I would have to price that way....so I am only qualified by my experience which sets me in the 200-1000 range. That being said I will tell you that as other makers have said previously one hopes to make the best knife he can......and is blessed with making a better one next time...and the next....etc.

To look for flaws I use all kinds of light, natural , indoor , flood lamps , etc while checking with a mag glass for flaws. I put the finished knife in a case to review a day or so later...hopefully with a fresh perspective. This has cost me....a few years back I made the knife you see in my banner, I had to replace the stick tang handle twice. Because I missed something, or one layer didnt sit well thus throwing the whole handle symetry off.....I will also say no-one i showed the knife to saw anything like what I just mentioned. Its just one of those things that we look for and hope not to see.

BJ
 
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