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Flow & Design or Fit & Finish or Performance?
- Thread starter Kevin Jones
- Start date
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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A lot of the collectors on here talk about fit and finish being the deal breaker, but there is alway that unspoken underlying assumption that the maker in question has already gotten pretty good at the basic mechanics of knifemaking and has figured out how to make knives that look and feel good. I was watching one of my Bill Moran DVD's in an attempt to build up the courage to try wire inlay and he told a story about design. He said that another maker came to his shop with some of his knives. Bill said that the fit and finish was very good, but the knives were ugly. When he told the maker that he should work on deisng, the reponse was "Why? they are selling." Bill said he never heard anything about that maker again.
I see lots knives at some of the smaller knife shows that I have gone to by makers that have been doing this longer than I have and, even though I am very tough on myself (more like low self esteem and anxiety...lol), my stuff clearly looks better than theirs in the design area. In some cases, my stuff is finished better in some ways and this is with me struggling to achive what i consider acceptable fit and finish. The bar has been set really high in here and most of you assume that anything you look at is going to be very good, so that you can pick and choose the examples that are nearly perfect.
I see lots knives at some of the smaller knife shows that I have gone to by makers that have been doing this longer than I have and, even though I am very tough on myself (more like low self esteem and anxiety...lol), my stuff clearly looks better than theirs in the design area. In some cases, my stuff is finished better in some ways and this is with me struggling to achive what i consider acceptable fit and finish. The bar has been set really high in here and most of you assume that anything you look at is going to be very good, so that you can pick and choose the examples that are nearly perfect.
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That could be the case if a knife was just butt ugly.
I have inspected maker's knives where I just didn't personally like their designs, however upon inspection their pieces are so fine from a fit & finish and execution standpoint that they become desirable or at least admired and/or respected.
There are several makers that knives fall into this category for me. How about you?
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I feel all 3 aspects of a custom knife form a "tripod" of what I deliver, leave 1 leg off and the tripod will fall over.
I started making knives because I was let down by a factory blade and couldn't afford a custom, so for me performance is very important.
I'm a big believer in "form follows function" so I think that knife's function dictates the form, adding some sexy curves can often improve the form while not affecting the function.
Fit and finish, I work hard for my money, I know my customers work hard for theirs. They spend their money with me so they deserve the best I can deliver. They could've spent their time and money somewhere else and I'm honored they chose to spend it with me.
I started making knives because I was let down by a factory blade and couldn't afford a custom, so for me performance is very important.
I'm a big believer in "form follows function" so I think that knife's function dictates the form, adding some sexy curves can often improve the form while not affecting the function.
Fit and finish, I work hard for my money, I know my customers work hard for theirs. They spend their money with me so they deserve the best I can deliver. They could've spent their time and money somewhere else and I'm honored they chose to spend it with me.
It is easy to make a pretty knife that looks good and has lots of sweeping lines, etc.
Fit and finish are a given and should be demanded in every piece. Sadly, bad fit and finish are often overlooked, and exceptional fit and finish are often under-appreciated.
Functionality stems from the maker's understanding of the tasks to be performed, and his ability to fashion the knife in the proper way to assure performance in use. This includes heat treatment, tempering, grinding, taper, balance-Generally, intangibles that can easily be overlooked by a customer or maker who is focused on "pretty".
Combining all three of these in a balanced way is a great challenge, and once you have handled and used a knife that achieves all these elements in balance, you are spoiled forever. There are some makers who have mastered this integrative process, and, IMO, they are the great ones. There aren't many.
I believe we are first attracted to a knife because it is "pretty". That is what draws us to it and makes us want to hold it. Then, we must put that aside and focus on being critical-Does it feel "right" ergonomically? Is it technically correct? (fit and finish)
Can I hold the knife 3 different ways and will it perform a useful task in each?
Can the maker explain how his choices in steel, HT, grinding and balance contribute to the knife's function?
Great knives literally sing in your hand and scream out "Let's cut something!!!"
Fit and finish are a given and should be demanded in every piece. Sadly, bad fit and finish are often overlooked, and exceptional fit and finish are often under-appreciated.
Functionality stems from the maker's understanding of the tasks to be performed, and his ability to fashion the knife in the proper way to assure performance in use. This includes heat treatment, tempering, grinding, taper, balance-Generally, intangibles that can easily be overlooked by a customer or maker who is focused on "pretty".
Combining all three of these in a balanced way is a great challenge, and once you have handled and used a knife that achieves all these elements in balance, you are spoiled forever. There are some makers who have mastered this integrative process, and, IMO, they are the great ones. There aren't many.
I believe we are first attracted to a knife because it is "pretty". That is what draws us to it and makes us want to hold it. Then, we must put that aside and focus on being critical-Does it feel "right" ergonomically? Is it technically correct? (fit and finish)
Can I hold the knife 3 different ways and will it perform a useful task in each?
Can the maker explain how his choices in steel, HT, grinding and balance contribute to the knife's function?
Great knives literally sing in your hand and scream out "Let's cut something!!!"
Tai Goo
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The most important thing is the “concept”,… then the “execution” of the concept.
In other words what was the “intention” of the maker and purpose for the knife,... and how successful was the maker in accomplishing what he set out to do? Did the knife meet the makers expectations, or did it fall short?
If the concept was good and the execution was good,…. you can be sure that there are plenty of collectors who will appreciate it.
After that it just comes down to, personal preferences, tastes and trends in the market place. The criteria in this topic could fall in any order or be interpreted and ordered differently by any one on any knife at any time.
In other words what was the “intention” of the maker and purpose for the knife,... and how successful was the maker in accomplishing what he set out to do? Did the knife meet the makers expectations, or did it fall short?
If the concept was good and the execution was good,…. you can be sure that there are plenty of collectors who will appreciate it.
After that it just comes down to, personal preferences, tastes and trends in the market place. The criteria in this topic could fall in any order or be interpreted and ordered differently by any one on any knife at any time.
Tai Goo
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It’s almost like we need to have a discussion on basic custom and handmade knife “appreciation”. We need to learn to look at knives more objectively and less subjectively. Trying to set a standard or set of criteria for “quality” that everyone should follow or conform to all the time,… stifles innovation, creativity, diversity, individuality, and growth in the industry.
Tai Goo
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This is just another topic that will only elicit numerous opinions based solely on personal tastes and preferences, and likely end up in another run on shouting contest based strictly on who considers themselves to be the most knowledgeable and have best taste… with no conclusive outcome.
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If a knifemaker is in the "business" of making knives, it's probably important for him/her to see the perspective of the collector. As an example, if most collectors believe that flow/design and fit/finish are most important, a maker who hasn't been paying as much attention to these areas perhaps just might decide to do so. It seems improbable that a maker is going to drive the market, one which seems more certainly driven by the buyer than the maker.
While it's virtually impossible for everyone here to agree on definitions, it seems that the three categories Kevin has proposed be considered have reasonably defined boundaries in the minds of most collectors.
At least that is the perspective from this collector.
While it's virtually impossible for everyone here to agree on definitions, it seems that the three categories Kevin has proposed be considered have reasonably defined boundaries in the minds of most collectors.
At least that is the perspective from this collector.
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I too believe most experienced collectors have a very good grasp of the definition of these terms. Perhaps too good a grasp for some maker's liking.
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I was going to write down my opinion on the matter, then RJ Martin and Tai Goo pretty much said it all.
If the concept (or design) sucks, this can't be improved by fit&finish, quality of steel, heat treating, sharpening.
If the design is good, the execution is what makes the difference (performance, fit and finish).
If the concept (or design) sucks, this can't be improved by fit&finish, quality of steel, heat treating, sharpening.
If the design is good, the execution is what makes the difference (performance, fit and finish).
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Is the knife intended to be collected by a collector, or used by a user?
Lots of variables contribute to how the three criteria balance out.
My answer is, of course, based on what I expect from knives I get for me:
Performance is MY most important consideration, and design directly affects performance in my experience.
Fit/finish is not a very important criterion for me at this stage in my blade consumption. I'm sure it would if I moved into the loftier realm of 'investment grade collecting'.
However, those Moran pieces in here sure are collectible, even if the fit/finish is sub par by today's standards.
Lots of variables contribute to how the three criteria balance out.
My answer is, of course, based on what I expect from knives I get for me:
Performance is MY most important consideration, and design directly affects performance in my experience.
Fit/finish is not a very important criterion for me at this stage in my blade consumption. I'm sure it would if I moved into the loftier realm of 'investment grade collecting'.
However, those Moran pieces in here sure are collectible, even if the fit/finish is sub par by today's standards.
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I absolutely agree with the above quote, though nothing I have read here suggests that a set of standard criteria is a good thing at all (except perhaps for someone suggesting we have some absolute table of definitions).
It certainly would stifle individuality, which here is so well expressed in the collectors' opinions of what they themselves seem to look for most in a knife - that is as individual as it comes.
It certainly would stifle individuality, which here is so well expressed in the collectors' opinions of what they themselves seem to look for most in a knife - that is as individual as it comes.
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Who said anything about setting a standard or criteria for quality for all?
All I was after is seeing how different collectors, dealers and makers put different emphasis/value on "flow & design"; "fit & Finish" and "performance".
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I too believe most experienced collectors have a very good grasp of the definition of these terms.
Perhaps too good a grasp for some maker's liking.
LOL! Good one!
P
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That could be the case if a knife was just butt ugly.
I have inspected maker's knives where I just didn't personally like their designs, however upon inspection their pieces are so fine from a fit & finish and execution standpoint that they become desirable or at least admired and/or respected.
There are several makers that knives fall into this category for me. How about you?
I can't remember the particulars, but I know what you mean. I don't usually pick many knives up unless I am attracted to them right off the bat, or at least curious about the design or mechanism. With folders, I have been turned on to a few due to the smooth action and full sounding click (or clack as Coop would say), with out being as visually attracted to the design.
So, yeah I can see your point.