Flow & Design or Fit & Finish or Performance?

[RogerP]

Well said Nick.

Roger

 

[RJ Martin]

There is no doubt in my mind that it is the looks of a knife that attract potential buyers to first pick it up. Until you have used the knife, the whole idea of performance is based on perception, observation and reputation.

Perception-Because you come to the table with ideas about what a certain type of knife should look like

Observation-Because you should be evaluating the build of the knife as it pertains to the task(s) you want to use it for, and looking for design features that will either hinder or enhance performance(stock thickness, grind type, edge thickness, etc.).

Reputation-Because several of the key components that determine performance cannot be evaluated directly at the time of purchase (heat treatment, edge holding, etc.). So, you have to seek out makers who have a reputation for these things, or go on faith.

I originally responded to this thread from the perspective of a maker, not a buyer. As a maker of tools, IMO the only acceptable end result is a tool that works extremely well. As a collector, that may nave no relevance, although I believe that the ultimate level of satisfaction in owning a custom knife is achieved only when the knife is used.

 

[RogerP]

There is no doubt in my mind that it is the looks of a knife that attract potential buyers to first pick it up. Until you have used the knife, the whole idea of performance is based on perception, observation and reputation.

Perception-Because you come to the table with ideas about what a certain type of knife should look like

Observation-Because you should be evaluating the build of the knife as it pertains to the task(s) you want to use it for, and looking for design features that will either hinder or enhance performance(stock thickness, grind type, edge thickness, etc.).

Reputation-Because several of the key components that determine performance cannot be evaluated directly at the time of purchase (heat treatment, edge holding, etc.). So, you have to seek out makers who have a reputation for these things, or go on faith.

I originally responded to this thread from the perspective of a maker, not a buyer. As a maker of tools, IMO the only acceptable end result is a tool that works extremely well. As a collector, that may nave no relevance, although I believe that the ultimate level of satisfaction in owning a custom knife is achieved only when the knife is used.

I think you are spot on, RJ. I don't presume to speak for all collectors, but I would venture that for a great many, performance is very much a relevant consideration. It may not be the first thing that draws them in - and in most cases will be a factor taken on "perception, observation and reputation" - but it still matters. It matters very much to me that the knives I purchase - whether they be plain or fancy - are capable of performing the tasks for which they were designed - and doing so very well indeed.

I also agree that ultimate satisfaction comes from using a custom knife. While this may not be practical with a multi-thousand dollar damscus bowie (in terms of retained value) that satisfaction can come from purchasing a using grade piece from the same maker. I have several custom "users". None are very expensive. All are very well made. I enoy the heck out of using them.

By the way - I got to try out one of your large choppers (don't recall the model name) that Dan Farr owns. We put it through a number of the cutting competition tests. I was VERY impressed with how it performed.

Roger

 

[Tai Goo]

I've seen lots of knives with great design, fit and finish, etc., but when I pick them up and handle them they just don't feel right. "Clunky" is probably the best word to describe it. I generally don't like clunky knives,... no matter how pretty they are.

... Now that I think about it, some of the prettiest knives are also some of the clunkiest.

 

[peterinct]

In perusing this thread, what I haven't noticed (forgive me if I am just blind and missed it) was any distinction as to WHAT type of knife it is.

My priorities would be different for a fancy folder vs. a hunter etc.

When picking up a folder for example, the initial flow and design is what first attracts my attention. When handling it, if the fit and finish are less than desired, I would quickly put it down.

If I were looking at a hunter and was going to use it, then I would be more cognizant of blade shape, heat treat, steel and how it fit my hand.

Peter

 

[RJ Martin]

peterinct: Yes, it does depend. But, even a simple bare bones hunter can (and should, IMO) have excellent fit and finish. By this, I do not mean excellent in terms of hand rubbed, for example-I mean excellent in terms of uniformity and appearance.

Evaluating the pros and cons of the various aspects we are discussing is one of the really fun parts of collecting.

Roger: You are speaking of my PATHFINDER, part of Les's Vanguard series. I have had this knife in my mind as I have been making my posts here. This is one of those knives where the concept, design and execution produced a sum that is greater than the parts. ( If that sounds like bragging, sorry. I have received several hard-use reports on this knife and the conclusions from the users were all the same). Not as pretty as some because of the micarta scales, but more "beautiful" than most when used. I always get a smile when I look at Dan's cutting competition knives and see the influence I have had on him.

 

[RogerP]

Ah yes - that Pathfinder - that's it - awesome performer.

Roger

 

[MVF]

I've seen lots of knives with great design, fit and finish, etc., but when I pick them up and handle them they just don't feel right. "Clunky" is probably the best word to describe it. I generally don't like clunky knives,... no matter how pretty they are.

... Now that I think about it, some of the prettiest knives are also some of the clunkiest.

Then it's not really "great design", is it?

 

[Tai Goo]

Then it's not really "great design", is it?

No it isn't!

It's not good design, unless the concept dictates that visual and aethestic considerations are the most important, reguardless of feel and performance...

Historically, there are such things as art knives, non-functional and ceremonial knives, in which performance and feel are not important considerations.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Design encompasses the look, feel, performance and durability of a knife.

 

[Lorien]

while I would not spend the extra couple to few hundred dollars on a custom knife if it didn't outperform every production knife available, I admit that the 'flow' and design, vis a vis the knife's 'looks', is what makes the first impression on me.

After that, I would more carefully consider the fit and finish and if I found it good enough for the price of the knife, especially if I had the guarantee of exceptional performance, then I'd consider buying it.

There are lots of production knives available with great design and flow, and with pretty great fit and finish, but where handmade knives can really shine is in their performance.

I've read a lot of makers say things like, "I couldn't find a knife on the market that could perform how I wanted it to, so I made my own. I've been making knives professionally ever since." That's the kind of guy I'd probably buy a knife from.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Form should follow function. When this is done, the mind subliminally sees the natural flow.

You see this in a lot of hunters. Fighters, and many Art Knives. I think a lot of the disdain of Fantasy Knives comes from the fact that they have totally left any usefulness, even the appearance of usefulness completely out of the designs. Oddly, I am seeing this more and more in the newer crop of Tactical Knives. Which by they're very nature and purpose should above all follow the ultimate form follows function rule. Far too many are being not only being made by Mall Ninjas, but sadly many of the makers are no better. Having no Idea what a knife is for. Just making what looks "Wicked". They are quickly becoming the new Fantasy Knifes.



The fit and finish is both up to the skill of the individual craftsman, and how far he is willing to go and how much time he is willing to spend on a given project.

Mike

 

[Ebbtide]

Form should follow function. When this is done, the mind subliminally sees the natural flow.

Having no Idea what a knife is for. Just making what looks "Wicked". They are quickly becoming the new Fantasy Knifes.

Mike

Amen Brudda!