Follow the Sheep Horn Fighter Thread

For the economics students out there, the price of the knife is at a 36% margin. It is at a 56% markup.

Mike can charge whatever he wants for the knife, but I feel that if a new collector purchases at that price and for whatever reason needs to sell it, and finds that he/she can only get $800.00 to $900.00 back, that collector may well be disappointed and disillusioned.

Something I have seen happen more than once is a new collector will purchase a custom knife for too high a price. Wanting to get something different this collector looks to sell the knife. He finds that he can only get two thirds of what he paid for it. Being new to collecting he thinks that this is just the way thing are and decides that custom knife collecting is just too rich for his blood. He decides to go back to production knives, because when you only spend $100.00 or so on a knife, if you lose one third when you sell it, it's no big deal.

If that Williams knife sold to a new collector for $1000.00 and when resold the collector got $800.00 to $900.00, that would be much more palatable.

I know that it is up to collectors to do their homework, but as you know, many new collectors are enthusiastic as all get out, and have little or no knowledge. It quite often doesn't take much to turn these people off collecting custom knives.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
I have to disagree. Dealers only provide a service. If a buyer finds the Williams knife appealing for $1250, they should buy it. That is probably darn close to the makers current price.

This knife is worth whatever it sells for.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but what about the price the buyer gets when they go to sell it?

They will have overpaid-this has been proven, and if they are a newbie?

How many times do you have to lose money on your hobby before you get into collecting beer bottle caps, one at a time.

I agree with WWG, Keith and Joss on this one, and you won't ever catch Coop saying bad shiz about no one, 'cause that is a potential customer that he just pissed all over, no money in it, bad for business.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I know that it is up to collectors to do their homework, but as you know, many new collectors are enthusiastic as all get out, and have little or no knowledge. It quite often doesn't take much to turn these people off collecting custom knives.
Click to expand...

As a "newbie" I couldn't agree more. I believe I may own enough knives now that my enthusiam has waned. The information this thread has provided me has been invaluable:thumbup: . I have learned to become very, very patient now;) .
 
This is a great thread in that it gives the novice custom knife buyer issues to consider prior to buying. I placed my first order for a custom knife last week and didn't give any thought to the price other than what I was willing to pay for the pleasure of carrying it.

In that regard, it seems to me that someone who wants to buy this bowie because he would enjoy using it (I don't know, maybe at Cowboy Action events or something) won't feel wronged if he feels the joy of owning or using the knife is worth, to him, $1250.

The guy that will feel wronged is the new collector who bought it with the idea of adding monetary value to his collection or flipping it within 6 months to a year. He wouldn't have bought it because the handle material IS his favorite or because he simply likes the lines. He'd be turned off to collecting and could be left with the impression that knife collecting like a novice poker player sitting down at a table full of sharks.

But I find it hard to identify with the latter type so (following full disclosure that I know close to nothing about this industry) my stance is: If he can sell it for $1250, then more power to him (and I hope it finds a home with someone who paid to enjoy the knife).
 
Starkman1 said:
As a "newbie" I couldn't agree more. I believe I may own enough knives now that my enthusiam has waned. The information this thread has provided me has been invaluable:thumbup: . I have learned to become very, very patient now;) .
Click to expand...

I am already patient. I am also half-way intelligent and VERY detail oriented (my wife calls it "super-anal"). Yet, no amount of research and no amount of effort in any form is necessarily going to provide answers in the short-term to questions that I have when considering a custom knife purchase.

It has been reiterated here that newbies DO need to do their homework. Some here have expressly stated that their knowledge and experience has only come after many years of being involved not just with custom knives, but with the makers as well. My point is that no matter what I do, I don't begin to have the knowledge that most every one of you has, and I probably won't ever even get close until I have been disappointed a few times (if I'm lucky) or many times (if I am not so lucky). That is part of life. We can all shoot for the ideal situation--one in which there are no losers, but that just isn't often reality.

Knowledge is power, and no matter who is in the mix with custom knife purchases, it is the newbie who likely does not have the knowledge, at least relative to the other players.

I appreciate the opinions you folks offer up; they are certainly valuable. But if I can't get to the shows (an almost necessary added expense if you really enjoy purchasing custom knives), I can't handle the knives, I can't meet the makers, and I can't talk to other customers, then I am still at a high level of risk for getting burned.

So when the day comes that I realize that I have made a mistake in the custom knife purchasing arena, please don't look at me, or any other newbie who makes a similar mistake, as a victim of self-bumbling. Believe me, more than any of you, I don't want to make a mistake, but like I said, at some point, it will be inevitable.
 
on_the_edge said:
So when the day comes that I realize that I have made a mistake in the custom knife purchasing arena, please don't look at me, or any other newbie who makes a similar mistake, as a victim of self-bumbling. Believe me, more than any of you, I don't want to make a mistake, but like I said, at some point, it will be inevitable.
Click to expand...

We don't and would not.

WE ALL have been burned, and it hurts, and sometimes, someone out there(unscrupulous dealer/maker/collector) does it in such a way that it leaves a painfully lasting impression, especially when said person is a charming bastard/bitch, and catches you off guard.

What we as a collective(can speak for many of the group on this one) hope to do is to minimize the intensity and degree of burning that the newbie has to cope with, by sharing our experiences.

It is in ALL of those that have been here for a while's best interest to do this. We get tired of talking to eachother, seeing the same faces at shows. New blood is good blood.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
We don't and would not.

WE ALL have been burned, and it hurts, and sometimes, someone out there(unscrupulous dealer/maker/collector) does it in such a way that it leaves a painfully lasting impression, especially when said person is a charming bastard/bitch, and catches you off guard.

What we as a collective(can speak for many of the group on this one) hope to do is to minimize the intensity and degree of burning that the newbie has to cope with, by sharing our experiences.

It is in ALL of those that have been here for a while's best interest to do this. We get tired of talking to eachother, seeing the same faces at shows. New blood is good blood.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

AMEN to that STeven.
It's in all our best interest to help each other and especially the Newbie.
 
Actually it's funny this comes up as Jerry and I were talking just Sunday about how some type of new collector mentoring program was needed, such
as they do with makers.
We as a group need to put some thought to this.
 
on_the_edge said:
It has been reiterated here that newbies DO need to do their homework.

So when the day comes that I realize that I have made a mistake in the custom knife purchasing arena, please don't look at me, or any other newbie who makes a similar mistake, as a victim of self-bumbling. Believe me, more than any of you, I don't want to make a mistake, but like I said, at some point, it will be inevitable.
Click to expand...

Everybody has to do their homework, not just newbies.

I have yet to be burned, but then again, I have not sold a lot of knives. I have no doubt that I have a couple of knives in my collection that would not see a good return. Since I purchased those knives I have learned a great deal and I would not now make the mistakes I did then, but I will not fool myself into thinking that I will not make other mistakes in the future.
 
Joss said:
A single occasion will at least paint the knife collecting world into a strange, opaque, incomprehensible market where only a clique of insiders gets a chance. People here might already think that of some segments of the market. How can that be good for the knife collecting biz / passion?
Click to expand...

Bingo.

Joss hit the nail on the head right here.

From my perspective anyway, this is what I'm most worried about. The last thing the knife market needs is to be acting like the contemporary art world. A lot of the posts I've read here have reminded me of things I read about the contemporary art market. And my favorite quote about that is -

"Upshot: If you're thinking about collecting contemporary art, don't. ... the art market is a high-stakes game played among sophisticated insiders, and you weren't invited. "

You want to see how bad it can get? http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/art/11265/index.html - I've posted this before here I think...

At any rate, while I understand that Mike and Mike would probably not be thrilled about this thread, I think this thread is generally positive for the market overall.

While I generally think of myself as being in the 'buy what you like' category, I'd also prefer if the knifes I buy hold at least some of their value if possible. Which brings me to another quote -

“As an asset market, art remains extremely illiquid. People forget that illiquid doesn’t mean ‘low price.’ It means ‘no price.’ ’’
 
gaussian said:
"Upshot: If you're thinking about collecting contemporary art, don't. ... the art market is a high-stakes game played among sophisticated insiders, and you weren't invited. "
Click to expand...

Quote from the article:

"Despite such a blunt assessment, Mehretu must be aware that what gives her paintings such value in the wild, unregulated art market is precisely what can be least regulated about them: herself. Collecting the work of living artists excites, and frustrates, collectors because it is so unpredictable. Will an artist’s output dry up? Will her style change? Will a painting soon be worth four times what was paid for it?"

“I make paintings, and when they’re finished, the gallery decides who has been interested in the work and they discuss with me who they’re planning to sell it to,” she says, while adding that right now she has no intention of leaving Christian Haye. “And they usually make very good decisions.”

Good stuff-not the game that most of us play, here.......but, a friend of mine collects art, and he collects knives, as well. Maybe he will chime in.

I collect art. Rock poster screen prints....Kozik, Coop(not the photographer, the guy who did the red devil chicks for Altoids), Hampton http://www.justinhampton.com/ ....actually, collect is not the right term---accumulate is more accurate.

Don't expect to get dick back for what I have into posters, and have put forth some change for a Hampton, White Stripes, with Meg's autograph, and a Motorhead one with Lemmy's autograph. They please me, the price was right, to the right collector, they might be worth a decent return, could care less. Dig the stuff, and compared to what the collectors in the previous article are paying, am forkin' out pennies.

FWIW, there are probably less than 20 collectors in the modern history of US knifemaking that have this kind of net worth. Know, or know of 10 of them. Knives is just another thing to them-watches, automobiles, art, all the same.

Fortunately for most of us, the level of insanity that occurs in the art market occurs in the knife market on a MUCH lower priced scale, that lets more of us play, regardless of net worth, within reason. Know people who collect fine custom knives, that have multiple homes, and know people who collect fine custom knives, that live in their cars.

BUT......if you want Farr knives, Lovett knives, Walker knives, Lake knives, Fogg knives, Steinau knives, or Appleton knives......., it IS going to take more than "just" money.

Just like if you wanted that Hampton with the Lemmy signature, 'cause there are only two, and got one, and ain't selling.;)

Gotta' be in the right place at the right time, and know the right people.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kevin Jones said:
Actually it's funny this comes up as Jerry and I were talking just Sunday about how some type of new collector mentoring program was needed, such
as they do with makers.
We as a group need to put some thought to this.
Click to expand...

Isn't Les already doing this? He sure mentored me when I was a newb. and still does.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Isn't Les already doing this? He sure mentored me when I was a newb. and still does.

Roger
Click to expand...

Yes he does. And of course there are makers who mentor collectors too, however I believe we were thinking of a more formal or structured program where collectors would mentor collectors.

Just a thought. I may start a thread to get some insight and views on the subject.
 
I just want to add that I think Mike is one of the better ABS style smiths so if this knife sells for the current price I don't think the buyer will be getting ripped off. I do believe that about $1,000 would be a "good" price though. I think we can all agree that the $600 Peter was able to buy it for was a low price and the $800 he sold it for was a good price for a quick sale.

It'll be interesting to see how long the knife takes to sell. Maybe a collector of his work or someone who likes horn and this particular pattern will come along, but I don't believe that person will be able to make a profit soon buying at that price. Hopefully it will be an end buyer who appreciates the piece rather than someone who winds up selling at a loss.

I don't know how much of a need there is for a mentoring plan for newbies. I feel that's part of the doing your homework requirement. I've been asked my opinion on Fowler knives and have given the information freely. I've suffered though a learning curve myself when I began to collect but who's to say that another collector wouldn't have been perfectly happy with my early purchases? Experience will always be the best teacher.
 
I'm really enjoying this thread. It is an excellent case study on the dynamics of the secondary market for custom knives. As WWG has said before the secondary market directly impacts knife collectors and indirectly custom knife makers. As a knife enthusiast for over 10 years I paid little attention to the secondary market since all of my rather infrequent custom knife purchases were in the primary market and many have now become users. It is only recently that I have made a conscious decision to move forward with my interest in regards towards actual "collecting". I'm thankful for the exsitence of the Blade Forums as a resource in continuing my education on custom knives.

As a "collector" purchasing this knife at its current price would be a mistake for the short term. Looking at it in the long term will depend on just how well Mr. Williams does in the knife making arena and for that matter how well the custom knife making market contines to grows overall.

Purchasing this knife for reasons other than collecting... then the current price doesn't matter as much... if the sellor can find a buyer. A few years back I ordered a large 10" carbon steel bowie knife from a Master Smith with the intention of actually using it... but at this price range I think its rare.
 
Before this thread dies, I just want to thank everyone who contributed to it. IMO, it is certainly one of the best threads I have read on BF in the 9 months that I have been around. :thumbup:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Lombardo
I have to disagree. Dealers only provide a service. If a buyer finds the Williams knife appealing for $1250, they should buy it. That is probably darn close to the makers current price.

This knife is worth whatever it sells for.

Yeah, but what about the price the buyer gets when they go to sell it?

They will have overpaid-this has been proven, and if they are a newbie?

How many times do you have to lose money on your hobby before you get into collecting beer bottle caps, one at a time.

I agree with WWG, Keith and Joss on this one, and you won't ever catch Coop saying bad shiz about no one, 'cause that is a potential customer that he just pissed all over, no money in it, bad for business.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Just because this knife sold for $595 and $800 after selling for $1150 doesn't mean it isn't still worth in the neighborhood of $1150. Mike Williams is a talented maker who has won numerous awards. When he got his Master's stamp he had some of the best knives I have ever seen at the Blade Show! People were hovering at his table like crows. He has been a little out of the limelight recently, but like all things, trends and fashions tend to come back around.

If Peter had paid $1150 for the knife (and he would have the first time around) I guarantee you the knife would have re-sold in the neighborhood of $1150. However, Peter paid $600 and he quickly sold for $800, made a tidy 33% ROI and moved on to new knives. He sold the knife in a few days on a Dutch Auction-does that establish the true value of the knife? What he had made the decison that he would list the knife for 30 days without reducing the price so the maximum amount of viewers could see the knife?

There are a lot of variables. I would guess Rehoboth's price of $1250 is somewhat flexible, but to stay in business, most dealers need to make in the neighborhood of 25-35% gross margin on sales to keep the lights on. For a purveyor, time is money. This is our hobby and we make our living in other ways but when Les or Mike or Larry spend time on these forums, they are spending time that they could be spending talking with clients, knifemakers etc. Time is money, so the cost of that $825 knife to RCK is actually even higher than it seems depending on what his "hourly rate" that he pays himself is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top