Forged vs Stock Removal - Cost?

[Kevin Jones]

Forged blades are my passion and where my limited expertise lay, but as of late I have found myself getting somewhat interested in stock removal or rather more in the processes and procedures by which the two transform from raw stock to finished knife.

Not so much form a construction or assembly standpoint, but more from a cost standpoint.

I would say from my observations that like or, for the sake of saving argument as alike as the two types can be, that stock removal knives bring about a 25%-35% on average premium over and above comparable forged knives. And please anyone that has an advantage over me regarding the validity of these figures please speak up.

As most of you know many times I start my threads asking a question or questions that I know, or think I know the answers to. Not so here, as my mission is to come away from this thread with an understanding as to why stock removal demand a premium over forged knives.

• Is it because forged makers have been more conservative in their pricing over the years?

• Is more skill required for making stock removal than forged knives?

• Have dealers had an influenced in the pricing of stock removal vs forged knives?

• Has the Loveless / Johnson popularity and movement played a role?

• Or is it just simply that production (steel, labor hours, equipment cost, heat treating etc.) cost are higher for stock removal than forged knives?

I’m familiar with both creative processes, and I don’t see any extreme differences in production cost. It seems to me the forging process is more consistent between makers as some stock removers use milling machines, pantographs and some just wheels. Seems like utilizing forged pattern welded steel would actually make forged knives more expensive to make than stock removal.

Perhaps stock removal knives are just more expensive than forged because they can be.

Please don't limit your responces to the questions above, but anything relative to the subject.

We have a mix here of forgers, stock removers, dealers and collectors who are experts on both so we should have some interesting exchanges and I hope learn a thing or two.

 

[rugbymatt]

Kevin
I dont really know the answer to your question, but I wanted to say that you have started some of the best threads I have read. Please keep up the good work. I have learned more from the threads you have started and the people who have posted in them then I ever imagined possible. I eagerly await the answers to this thread, and to your future threads. Thanks.

Matt A

 

[Mark Williams]

Kevin,

I can only address production costs for myself

About the only difference for me to make a stock removal knife vs a real knife is the time it takes to forge (30-60 minutes) and that gets nullified by time saved in grinding. I'll treat a stock removal knife pretty much the same as far as heat treatment.

Handle type can be a real issue as far as time involved. It's pretty quick and easy to slap a set of slabs on a full tang stock removal knife. Fitting a guard on a hidden tang can be time consuming if you dont have a mill.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,

I can only address production costs for myself

About the only difference for me to make a stock removal knife vs a real knife is the time it takes to forge (30-60 minutes) and that gets nullified by time saved in grinding. I'll treat a stock removal knife pretty much the same as far as heat treatment.

Handle type can make be real issue as far as time involved. It's pretty quick and easy to slap a set of slabs on a full tang stock removal knife. Fitting a guard on a hidden tang can be time consuming if you dont have a mill.

Thanks Mark. That's just where I would like to go with this. To determine the actual difference in cost to produce. As you pointed out, the forger loses labor hrs. here, but makes them back there.

Then after we determine cost difference to produce, we can work on solving the $2000 question, why more $ to the collector

And obviously, this is not going to be exact by any means as it's just hard to compare the two.

It would have helped if I would have drawn similar examples of each and posted to help get more precise feed-back.

If anyone can easily generate and post computer renderings of average similar forged and stock removal hunters it could be a big help here.

And please, let's not let this become a war between forged and stock removal enthusiast, as we (myself included ie, yesterday's spat on the pricing thread; sorry) ruin many a good thread that way.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin
I dont really know the answer to your question, but I wanted to say that you have started some of the best threads I have read. Please keep up the good work. I have learned more from the threads you have started and the people who have posted in them then I ever imagined possible. I eagerly await the answers to this thread, and to your future threads. Thanks.

Matt A

Thanks Matt very much, however I just ask the questions. The forum member's vast knowledge and expertise supplies the rest.

 

[Darby]

...but I wanted to say that you have started some of the best threads I have read. Please keep up the good work. I have learned more from the threads you have started and the people who have posted in them then I ever imagined possible. I eagerly await the answers to this thread, and to your future threads. Thanks.

Matt A

YES! Kevin you are a great asset here.

 

[jdm61]

I'm not sure what the price structure is for stock removal knives on the high end. Guys like Bob Loveless may have skewed the prices WAY up because the demnad for knives like he makes is so high. When I look at the user end of the market, generally speaking, it seems that forged knives often demand a premium over a lot of stock removal knives when we are talking about makers of similar experience and skill level. I just took an order for a forged W2 hunter with no sheath and charged $160 for it. I don't think that, at my level of experience, I could have asked that price and had the customer accept without even balking if I was making stock removal knives of equal quility......or lack thereof. Now I may be wrong. I am not arguing the ineheent superiority of one style over the other. It just seems that some folks are willing to pay a bit extra for a forged knife perhaps because of the mystique alone.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Here's a typical example where a stock removal knife approaches double the price of the similar forged knife.

Mid-range priced example Dean/Kresslar

 

[rbmcmjr]

I think maybe you are seeing an apparent anomaly due to market demand, not manufacturing process differences. If you move down-market in the sub-$500 range, won't the price point comparison reverse?

 

[custombuff]

I have only been collecting for a short time and by no means bring expertise to the table, but I did have an observation I wanted to share (and others can chime in to agree or disagree)...and that is that I don't necessarily see a huge difference in cost. I don't follow the pricing of the top tier of makers from either side, but that is also very volatile. There may be a difference in pricing between forged and stock-removal for some items (where you talking about hunters in particular? or a certain price range?), but I don't see much of a difference when it comes to bowies (or other larger knives) and certainly when it comes to damascus the prices are similar. Of course, this is just with the knives I have been watching over the years.

If there were a difference, it might be attributed to the fact that a lot of stock-removal guys are "instant professionals". That is, if there work is up to it, they can step right in and spend a relatively short amount of time establishing themselves and start charging "the typical price" for a given knife. In contrast, the guy who forges has an established charter to follow (the ABS). The market uses this to enforce a certain price structure (i.e. JS charges less in general than an MS) and you have to work for several years to become a JS and then an MS, so prices don't rise as quickly.

Nick

 

[custombuff]

And my previous post was referring to knives in the $250-$!500 range.
Nick

 

[Phillip Patton]

Good topic, as usual, Kevin.
Speaking for myself, stock removal knives are a lot easier, and "cheaper" to make, thus, I charge less for them than for forged blades of equal size.

I can't say why the stock removal knives you posted are more expensive than the forged ones.

 

[Gene Martin]

The biggest difference in material costs between stock removal and forging has to do with steel type. I can buy a foot of 5160 for $2, but a foot of ATS34 in the same dimensions is closer to $18. And it wouldn't take a foot of 5160 to forge the same knife. Material costs for heat treating are also different, in that few people will use a furnace to heat treat the 5160 blade, whereas the stainless takes HT foil, a furnace, liquid nitrogen and time.

Other than material costs, the only other factor is labor. How long does a maker spend forging and grinding vs just grinding? The carbon steels seem to hand finish faster than air hardening steels.

My $.02 worth.

Gene

 

[jdm61]

I have only been collecting for a short time and by no means bring expertise to the table, but I did have an observation I wanted to share (and others can chime in to agree or disagree)...and that is that I don't necessarily see a huge difference in cost. I don't follow the pricing of the top tier of makers from either side, but that is also very volatile. There may be a difference in pricing between forged and stock-removal for some items (where you talking about hunters in particular? or a certain price range?), but I don't see much of a difference when it comes to bowies (or other larger knives) and certainly when it comes to damascus the prices are similar. Of course, this is just with the knives I have been watching over the years.

If there were a difference, it might be attributed to the fact that a lot of stock-removal guys are "instant professionals". That is, if there work is up to it, they can step right in and spend a relatively short amount of time establishing themselves and start charging "the typical price" for a given knife. In contrast, the guy who forges has an established charter to follow (the ABS). The market uses this to enforce a certain price structure (i.e. JS charges less in general than an MS) and you have to work for several years to become a JS and then an MS, so prices don't rise as quickly.


Nick

Excellent point regarding the ABS and its impact on the pricing of forged knives. Les Robertson was taking abut this the other day and basically stated that for ABS Apprentice and Journeymen smiths, there is a pretty hard and fast price structure with some exceptions. Apprentice smiths seem to be able to charge around $175-225 for a basic hunter with sheath with the increase in price coming as they get close to their JS test. Journeymen seem to be able to start out at around $275 for the same knife. A new Master Smith seems to be able to get around $100 more. There are exceptions like our friend Don Hanson, but he has been doing this for a LONG time and makes incredible pieces, so his price structure was developed independently of his membership and "credentialing" with the ABS, which is apparently MUCH more recent that I had imagined. I figured that he had been a JS for a long time and just put off his MS test because he didn't have time. The stock removal market may have some price structure, but at the top end, the prices of people who emulate the masters such as Bob Loveless seem to be able to price their knives closer to his prices than those who emulate Bill Moran. Now this analysis may have some holes in it, but I can still find a Jay Hendrickson hunter with wire inlay and a polished maple sheath for well below $1000 and I would have to pay at LEAST $5000-6000 for a comparable Moran. Does a Steve Johnson hunter sell for 1/5-1/6 of the price of a current prodcution Loveless hunter?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Excellent point regarding the ABS and its impact on the pricing of forged knives. Les Robertson was taking abut this the other day and basically stated that for ABS Apprentice and Journeymen smiths, there is a pretty hard and fast price structure with some exceptions. Apprentice smiths seem to be able to charge around $175-225 for a basic hunter with sheath with the increase in price coming as they get close to their JS test. Journeymen seem to be able to start out at around $275 for the same knife. A new Master Smith seems to be able to get around $100 more. There are exceptions like our friend Don Hanson, but he has been doing this for a LONG time and makes incredible pieces, so his price structure was developed independently of his membership and "credentialing" with the ABS, which is apparently MUCH more recent that I had imagined. I figured that he had been a JS for a long time and just put off his MS test because he didn't have time. The stock removal market may have some price structure, but at the top end, the prices of people who emulate the masters such as Bob Loveless seem to be able to price their knives closer to his prices than those who emulate Bill Moran. Now this analysis may have some holes in it, but I can still find a Jay Hendrickson hunter with wire inlay and a polished maple sheath for well below $1000 and I would have to pay at LEAST $5000-6000 for a comparable Moran. Does a Steve Johnson hunter sell for 1/5-1/6 of the price of a current prodcution Loveless hunter?

Dam Joe, you are makeing some great points. Did you go to bed early last night.

I also liked custombuff's point regarding the ABS and its impact on the pricing of forged knives.

 

[NickWheeler]

Kevin-

Interesting and thought provoking thread. Your examples of the upper end are good ones. However, for the better part of the knife market, I totally agree with rbmcmjr. Seems to me I see a lot of basic stock removal hunters in the $200 range that would be more like $250-300 for forged.

Without getting into the "is one better" area of this type discussion, let me say that forging your blades requires an entirely new skill set and another shop full of equipment.

I will vehemently argue with anyone who wants to disagree with that.

For arguments sake, let's compare apples to apples and look at a simple forged type hunter with ss guard and wood handle and that's the same in every way to a stock removal blade (make them the same profile, geometry, etc)... If I made one with forging equipment and one with stock removal, the forged one would take me longer and be more difficult to complete.

With stock removal I start with a piece of precision ground steel, paint it with Dykem lay-out fluid, then scribe all my lines. Grind it out, spray the edges, then mark all of my edges with a height gage.

At that point, I'll have a blade ready to grind.

With forging, I take a piece of round-stock, forge it down flat, then proceed to try and not F it up by banging on it with a hammer until it looks like a knife blade, with a pointy tip, thin edge, and tapers all in place (mind you this has become my favorite part of knifemaking!!!! ).

All the while making sure that that thin hammered edge is all centered with the ricasso (thickness). Once done forging, you HAVE to do at least a couple thermal cycles. Then, I get all the scale off the blade, then surface grind the ricasso to create a precision foundation from which all of my center lines can be scribed on my granite lay-out plate with dykem and a height gage. NOW, this blade is ready to grind.

Production cost? Well, if you look at initial lay-out for tooling it's a LOT more. I have easily added $20,000 worth of equipment to my shop in order to set it up to forge the way that I can now.... and it's ever growing. Which points out the obvious, you need twice as big of a shop to cram all that forging equipment into as you need for strictly stock removal.

AGAIN, this post of mine does not point fingers as one being better or any crap of that nature... It's very matter of fact, so please don't think I'm trying to start any flaming here.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

You could talk to me until you were blue in the face trying to explain to me why that Johnson knife is nearly twice the price of the Fisk and I wouldn't understand it.
The time/labor/material/expertise curve alone of making just the Damascus in the first place for the Fisk knife places it far about the stock removal Johnson - in my opinion.
I started making knives in '97 as a stock removal maker, and I don't care who you are, stock removal is nothing more that grinding away whatever doesn't look like a knife.
I will admit that that alone requires a great bit of attention to detail and design.
Some of the best knives that walk this planet are stock removal.
I say that the creative and control factor of forging a knife far exceeds anything I ever did as a stock removal maker.
Maybe that's just me.
Joe, I don't understand your prices! I think you need to raise yours!
Since I started making knives in '97, I have NEVER sold a knife for under $200.00 - EVER! And those were stock removal stainless as a brand new knife maker!
You will lose money on every knife you make if you sell one for less than that now.

 

[NickWheeler]

Since I'm a much more visual person... Maybe this will help others too.

This has been posted here years ago, so sorry if it offends anyone that I'm posting it now... but it's quite relevant to my post above.

Not trying to toot my own horn here at all... in fact you'll quickly notice these blades don't really look like my normal stuff... but the process photos explain exactly what I was trying to explain above with text.

Just click the Part II and Part III links at the bottom of the page (when you get that far) to see the difference in the grinding vs. forging.

THANKS

http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=178

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin-

Interesting and thought provoking thread. Your examples of the upper end are good ones. However, for the better part of the knife market, I totally agree with rbmcmjr. Seems to me I see a lot of basic stock removal hunters in the $200 range that would be more like $250-300 for forged.

Without getting into the "is one better" area of this type discussion, let me say that forging your blades requires an entirely new skill set and another shop full of equipment.

I will vehemently argue with anyone who wants to disagree with that.

For arguments sake, let's compare apples to apples and look at a simple forged type hunter with ss guard and wood handle and that's the same in every way to a stock removal blade (make them the same profile, geometry, etc)... If I made one with forging equipment and one with stock removal, the forged one would take me longer and be more difficult to complete.

With stock removal I start with a piece of precision ground steel, paint it with Dykem lay-out fluid, then scribe all my lines. Grind it out, spray the edges, then mark all of my edges with a height gage.

At that point, I'll have a blade ready to grind.

With forging, I take a piece of round-stock, forge it down flat, then proceed to try and not F it up by banging on it with a hammer until it looks like a knife blade, with a pointy tip, thin edge, and tapers all in place (mind you this has become my favorite part of knifemaking!!!! ).

All the while making sure that that thin hammered edge is all centered with the ricasso (thickness). Once done forging, you HAVE to do at least a couple thermal cycles. Then, I get all the scale off the blade, then surface grind the ricasso to create a precision foundation from which all of my center lines can be scribed on my granite lay-out plate with dykem and a height gage. NOW, this blade is ready to grind.

Production cost? Well, if you look at initial lay-out for tooling it's a LOT more. I have easily added $20,000 worth of equipment to my shop in order to set it up to forge the way that I can now.... and it's ever growing. Which points out the obvious, you need twice as big of a shop to cram all that forging equipment into as you need for strictly stock removal.

AGAIN, this post of mine does not point fingers as one being better or any crap of that nature... It's very matter of fact, so please don't think I'm trying to start any flaming here.

I agree Nick, thus my confusion as to my examples. A market abnormallity perhaps but not a just a recent one. And true, I'm mainly addessing knives in the $1,000 and up range.

It's starting to look like stock removal makers/dealers ($1000+) get more because they can and collectors allow it, so I guess alls OK.

 

[jdm61]

Kevin-

Interesting and thought provoking thread. Your examples of the upper end are good ones. However, for the better part of the knife market, I totally agree with rbmcmjr. Seems to me I see a lot of basic stock removal hunters in the $200 range that would be more like $250-300 for forged.

Without getting into the "is one better" area of this type discussion, let me say that forging your blades requires an entirely new skill set and another shop full of equipment.

I will vehemently argue with anyone who wants to disagree with that.

For arguments sake, let's compare apples to apples and look at a simple forged type hunter with ss guard and wood handle and that's the same in every way to a stock removal blade (make them the same profile, geometry, etc)... If I made one with forging equipment and one with stock removal, the forged one would take me longer and be more difficult to complete.

With stock removal I start with a piece of precision ground steel, paint it with Dykem lay-out fluid, then scribe all my lines. Grind it out, spray the edges, then mark all of my edges with a height gage.

At that point, I'll have a blade ready to grind.

With forging, I take a piece of round-stock, forge it down flat, then proceed to try and not F it up by banging on it with a hammer until it looks like a knife blade, with a pointy tip, thin edge, and tapers all in place (mind you this has become my favorite part of knifemaking!!!! ).

All the while making sure that that thin hammered edge is all centered with the ricasso (thickness). Once done forging, you HAVE to do at least a couple thermal cycles. Then, I get all the scale off the blade, then surface grind the ricasso to create a precision foundation from which all of my center lines can be scribed on my granite lay-out plate with dykem and a height gage. NOW, this blade is ready to grind.

Production cost? Well, if you look at initial lay-out for tooling it's a LOT more. I have easily added $20,000 worth of equipment to my shop in order to set it up to forge the way that I can now.... and it's ever growing. Which points out the obvious, you need twice as big of a shop to cram all that forging equipment into as you need for strictly stock removal.

AGAIN, this post of mine does not point fingers as one being better or any crap of that nature... It's very matter of fact, so please don't think I'm trying to start any flaming here.

Good points, Nick. Whether or not stock removal knives take more or less time that forged knives do to make on paper, the perception......and perhaps reality is that stock removal guys make more knives in a given period of time than forgers do. I have heard from some of my mates on BB that some guys can knock out 20 Woodlore clone blades from PG O1 in a single day. Now he may have to send them out for HT and you can't do that 5 days a week, but if he just sells them to hobbyists and makes 20 pounds ($40) per blade, thats a pretty good days pay for a hard days work
You see a lot of stock removal blades on here, Ebay etc. that look pretty good and are priced CHEAP!!! Not so much with forged blades unless they are very simple and were quick to make. Onviously, this does not apply as much to the high end, highly embellished knives made by either method because the work done AFTER making the blade takes a LOT more time. But all things being equal, the market usually accepts that there may be more labor involved in forging a blade and, in the case of the relatively unknown maker, the market seems willing to pay a bit more. For someone like Nick, I'm not sure how it works. If he had gotten all of the glowing press for his outstanding work that he did from dealers, Blade, Peck Award, etc, etc, and he made Loveless style knives, maybe he could charge even more than he currently does.