Forged vs Stock Removal - Cost?

Kevin Jones said:
Dam Joe, you are makeing some great points. Did you go to bed early last night. ;) :D

I also liked custombuff's point regarding the ABS and its impact on the pricing of forged knives.
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Early to bed two nights in a row.....I was up in the Panhandle:D What does a Johnson hunter like that sell for?
 
kbaknife said:
You could talk to me until you were blue in the face trying to explain to me why that Johnson knife is nearly twice the price of the Fisk and I wouldn't understand it.
The time/labor/material/expertise curve alone of making just the Damascus in the first place for the Fisk knife places it far about the stock removal Johnson - in my opinion.
I started making knives in '97 as a stock removal maker, and I don't care who you are, stock removal is nothing more that grinding away whatever doesn't look like a knife.
I will admit that that alone requires a great bit of attention to detail and design.
Some of the best knives that walk this planet are stock removal.
I say that the creative and control factor of forging a knife far exceeds anything I ever did as a stock removal maker.
Maybe that's just me.
Joe, I don't understand your prices! I think you need to raise yours!
Since I started making knives in '97, I have NEVER sold a knife for under $200.00 - EVER! And those were stock removal stainless as a brand new knife maker!
You will lose money on every knife you make if you sell one for less than that now.
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If you are taliking about my prices, I have only sold 2 knives (number 3 and 4 on order) and was not totally pleased with them. I wanted to get some out in the market like the new crack dealer in the neighborhood does...lol. I am thinking a little differently now that I have told by everyone in the UK that the two they saw were screaming bargains. Seeing a "glamour shot" of my little ugly bowie in its gorgeous new custom Singetek sheath has also change my outlook a little bit. Amazing what a new pair of shoes can do for ya :D
 
Hi KB,

You wrote: "You could talk to me until you were blue in the face trying to explain to me why that Johnson knife is nearly twice the price of the Fisk and I wouldn't understand it."

Ok, here it is there will be no face bluing here (I know how fond you are of bluing :D).

Steve Johnson, has been around for at least 10 more years than Jerry. He was trained by Loveless, worked in his shop for years making Loveless knives. A few years back he had cancer in his thumb and part of it had to be removed. Fortunately that was it. However, he announced that he would no longer be able to make knives. Guess what happened to Steve's knives in the aftermarket. Yep...prices through the roof. Then Steve (being the smart guy he is) figured out a way to start making knives again. Yep you guessed the prices started where (or close to where) the after market now was.

In addition people are now paying record prices for Loveless knives. Can't get a Loveless get a Steve Johnson (who makes a better knife in my opinion). Both are seeing a huge demand for their work with prices going up in the after market.

Both Steve and Jerry deserve every cent they get for their knives. Both have given so much back to custom knives.

Steve gets the money he does because he is Steve Johnson. Jerry gets the money he does because he is Jerry Fisk. Lets look at Jerry's prices next decade and see how they compare to Steve's prices this decade.

Ok, let your breath out. See your not even blue in the face!

WWG
 
rbmcmjr said:
I think maybe you are seeing an apparent anomaly due to market demand, not manufacturing process differences. If you move down-market in the sub-$500 range, won't the price point comparison reverse?
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I think you may be right. In addition there's probably more dealer mark-up on the hot-maker stock removal than like forged knives.

I'm certainly not implying the stock removal knives I used as examples are not worth current prices.
As a matter of fact, I consider the SR Johnson hunter to be one of the finest looking hunters I have ever seen.
 
Since when is the price of high-end custom knives (forged or stock removal) primarily a function of their production cost?

Roger
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Steve gets the money he does because he is Steve Johnson. Jerry gets the money he does because he is Jerry Fisk. Lets look at Jerry's prices next decade and see how they compare to Steve's prices this decade.
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You would have to do a lot of factoring to come up with that comparison, because in 10 years a $3000.00 knife should sell for $4000.00 just to cover inflation.

I don't think the fact that one is stock removal and the other is forged really has anything to do with why one costs more than the other in those examples. If I were to take examples of two stock removal makers, or two bladesmiths that made knives of similar quality and where all the makers are highly regarded, I would be willing to bet that I could find many examples of equally high disparities in price. It is all based on what collectors are willing to pay for the makers' knives.
 
Hi Keith,

I wasn't comparing stock removal to forged. I was comparing two professionals who through busting their butts for as long as they. Have in fact reached the top of their professions. They are being compensated by those out there who see that and appreciate it.

My reference to pricing has to do with Jerry having been a knife maker for less time than Steve. I have every confidence that when Jerry Fisk has been making knives as long as Steve has his prices will be in line with (adjusted for inflation) what Steve Johnson is getting now.

With regards to these two makers it is no longer about fixed and variable costs. It is about setting the standard for all other makers. To let them know at this point in time what the "Market will bear".

WWG
 
Keith Montgomery said:
You would have to do a lot of factoring to come up with that comparison, because in 10 years a $3000.00 knife should sell for $4000.00 just to cover inflation.

I don't think the fact that one is stock removal and the other is forged really has anything to do with why one costs more than the other in those examples. If I were to take examples of two stock removal makers, or two bladesmiths that made knives of similar quality and where all the makers are highly regarded, I would be willing to bet that I could find many examples of equally high disparities in price. It is all based on what collectors are willing to pay for the makers' knives.
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Perhaps I should not have used Fisk/Johnson examples as other factors contribute. I should remove it form consideration.

So Keith did I make a wrong assumption in your opinion that stock removal knives are generally sold at a premium to like forged knives in the middle to high end prices ranges?
 
I do not think that stock removal knives are sold at a premium in comparison to forged knives. To be 100% sure of this I would have to do a lot of research, but from what I have seen, what seems to matter is what the collector is willing to pay for a maker's knives. This can be determined by many factors, but I don't think that how the knife is made has much, if anything to do with it. Other than the fact that most collectors are interested in stainless steel knives. This means that those makers working in stainless steel will have a broader market and will be able to command higher prices, because they can only make so many knives.

Some makers also charge what the market will bear, while others keep their prices below that level. Steve and Deitmar may well price their knives at the upper limit of what they can get, while Jerry and Harvey might be able to get more for theirs.

I doubt that there are very many, if any, collectors out there that believe that they are getting a better made knife if it is made by the stock removal method, and for that reason are willing to pay more.
 
The Loveless et al style vs. Fisk style comparison is interesting. Has anyone considered the buyer in the equation. Is is undeniable that buyers of Loveless and Loveless style knives buy with a wild abandon...lol. However, more than once, I have heard people talking about forged knives and say that they want to see something other than the typical "ABS 101" bowie, which I take as meaning a Fisk/Crowell/Dean, etc. style knife. The Loveless style is one of the most ubiqutious styles out there. Everybody and their grandmother copies it and it would seem that most these buyers expect to see knives in this style and don't actively with for another.:D The wild thing about Loveless knives is that there have, at any given time over the last 30 years, been at least TWO guys making them in the shop, so the numbers of Loveless knives out there should far exceed the number of Moran or Fisk knives by a large margin and yet there is still a sufficient demand to keep the prices where they are. And I'm sure that the Loveless shop produces more than the 40 or so knives a year that Jerry makes now so this is not changing. Now the REAL interesting part will be when Bob passes on. Will the "brand" remain kind of like Randall after Bo passed and what will happen to it?
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I do not think that stock removal knives are sold at a premium in comparison to forged knives. To be 100% sure of this I would have to do a lot of research, but from what I have seen, what seems to matter is what the collector is willing to pay for a maker's knives. This can be determined by many factors, but I don't think that how the knife is made has much, if anything to do with it. Other than the fact that most collectors are interested in stainless steel knives. This means that those makers working in stainless steel will have a broader market and will be able to command higher prices, because they can only make so many knives.

Some makers also charge what the market will bear, while others keep their prices below that level. Steve and Deitmar may well price their knives at the upper limit of what they can get, while Jerry and Harvey might be able to get more for theirs.

I doubt that there are very many, if any, collectors out there that believe that they are getting a better made knife if it is made by the stock removal method, and for that reason are willing to pay more.
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Well first of all from my perspective, this thread has nothing to do with one being better than the other.

Perhaps I'm just mistaken, that's why I asked in the forth sentence of my original post if others agreed. If in fact stock removal knives are not generally more expensive then there's not much point in continuing here.

I have always thought that stock removal makers tend to be higher. Edmund Davidson, great knives but seems to bring more than his forged counterparts.
For example, I would bet you $1.00 that his basic or fully embellished hunter would be 15%-20% more than Tim Hancock's. Bet?
 
Actually, I don't think that Dean and Fisk make many ABS 101 bowies. Crowell seems to make a few.

I don't think it's correct that there have been at least two people making Loveless knives for the last 30 years. Most of the time I think there has only been one. As far as I know, Jim Merrit is the only person that has been making them for quite awhile now. Though Bob still does do some of the stuff.

Loveless knives have been around for a long time and they have developed a huge following. However, they are very expensive and hard to get. That produced an opening for other makers to fill the void. Johnson and Kressler offer knives of exceptional quality for somewhat lower prices than Loveless, but the demand for Loveless style knives is much greater than they can fill, and their prices are still higher than most collectors can afford. That leaves an opening for makers like Mike Lovett and John Young who make great knives for much lower prices. These knives hold great appeal for a large number of people, and I'm one of them.

Now the REAL interesting part will be when Bob passes on. Will the "brand" remain kind of like Randall after Bo passed and what will happen to it?
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That will depend on what Bob wants.
 
Please correct me if I have missed something in the example comparison between the Dean and the Kressler. In the particular example given, the stock removal knife is a full integral, and in this case took longer to make than the forged blade, undoubtedly. And the Euro carries about a 35% premium over the dollar at the moment, causing the Kressler to automatically escalate in price simply based on the exchange rate.
 
I think that the biggest difference between the two knives pictures is that the Kressler (stock removal) has had a lot more planning put into it. Kressler's knives are integrals, so although a lot of the work is done on a mill it, takes a lot more planning and laying out of the knife before any of the work starts. You also have to figure how to hold it and make both sides mirror images of each other while only being able to see one side.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Well first of all from my perspective, this thread has nothing to do with one being better than the other.
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That is one of the reasons that someone would pay more for a knife, so just because from your perspective it has nothing to do with it, from someone elses perspective if they thought that a stock removal knife was better made than a forged one, that would be a reason for them to pay more.

What I am saying is that stock removal or forged has, in my opinion, absolutely nothing to do with why those makers knives are priced differently.

The knives that Edmund Davidson makes that cost more than Tim Hancock's do are the full integrals, and you will find that knives with integral guards and butts are always way more money than the similar knives made the regular way. If you look at Edmund Davidson's standard knives you will see that they don't cost that much at all, though he doesn't make that many any more. Demand is for his integrals.

Take a look at the knives produced by David Broadwell. Carved pattern welded blades with carved ivory handles and impecable workmanship, for as little as $2000.00. I would be willing to bet you that I can find dozens, possibly hundreds, of stock removal makers that make knives as good as those by equivalent stature bladesmiths, that charge less.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Actually, I don't think that Dean and Fisk make many ABS 101 bowies. Crowell seems to make a few.

I don't think it's correct that there have been at least two people making Loveless knives for the last 30 years. Most of the time I think there has only been one. As far as I know, Jim Merrit is the only person that has been making them for quite awhile now. Though Bob still does do some of the stuff.

Loveless knives have been around for a long time and they have developed a huge following. However, they are very expensive and hard to get. That produced an opening for other makers to fill the void. Johnson and Kressler offer knives of exceptional quality for somewhat lower prices than Loveless, but the demand for Loveless style knives is much greater than they can fill, and their prices are still higher than most collectors can afford. That leaves an opening for makers like Mike Lovett and John Young who make great knives for much lower prices. These knives hold great appeal for a large number of people, and I'm one of them.



That will depend on what Bob wants.
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I wouldn't say hard to get by any means.

There are currently 28 Lovelesses available right now just on the dealer sites I follow. Everything from the base micarta hunters to jr bears, big bears, wilderness, NY specials, nesmuck skinner, stiff horn and even a ulta rare three piece stag big bear.

No not hard to get. Just hard to pay for. ;)
 
Is the majority of the market (all price ranges) for stainless/ latest greatest super steels? Those would primarily be stock removal fabrication, and maybe the higher end stock removal makers have positioned themselves in a market that has more customers and demand.
 
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