Forged vs Stock Removal - Cost?

The Johnson and Takahashi knives ( and to a lesser extent the Kressler) being used here for comparison purposes are being quoted at prices that are significantly higher than the original makers price.
 
I think there are several potential reasons:

1 - Leading collectors at the very top of the food chain are more interested in stainless than carbon steel. I remember reading an interview a while back in "La Passion des Couteaux" of an important collector (can't remember his name - he's the man who commissioned the "keshua" (sp?) series of knives with pierced and carved blades), and he said that he didn't collect carbon steel knives because whatever you did, something would happen at some point or another to the blade finish.

1bis - Leading collectors are more interested in the style of knives that is best / most often represented by stock removers (Loveless style, multiblade folders, etc). To the contrary, they are not that interested in bowies.

2 - Some stock removal blades take more work. When I look at the most popular stock removal knives, I often see mirror finish, deep hollow grinds, doubled grinds, etc. Those are very time consumming, and I am not sure we (forged blade afficionados) factor that work to the right extent. I know that I understand the work that goes into various aspects of a forged knife, but not so much of a stock removal piece.

3 - The ratio of forged to stainless collector pieces produced by be very different in the US than in other regions, e.g., Europe and Japan (in Japan, I consider the shinsakuto market to be completely different from the custom knife market). If this is true, the FX effect by itself would lift the price of stainless knives.

4 - The custom knife market for stainless is older and better established.

All those are possible reasons. I don't know if my hypotheses are true though. No doubt Les can bring some light...
 
The Johnson and Takahashi knives ( and to a lesser extent the Kressler) being used here for comparison purposes are being quoted at prices that are significantly higher than the original makers price.

To your and Samhell's point, there may lie the answer.

All except the Dean Damascus Hunter (damascus) are dealer prices.
The Dean sold from his website for $1140, the Kressler compared to it was $2600 at dealer price. Websites for others are listed if interested in prices.

Perhaps the dealers are selling the forged knives at maker's prices, however marking up the stock removal knives considerably, taking advantage of the Loveless factor.
 
Pretty much in agreement on the Damascus point here. I just wanted to throw that element into the mix for one reason in particular. The point is exactly as you are making. It's only a single component of the "answer" to the question you posed in your thread. And to try and answer the question would require you to make head to head comparisons with each and every maker - and each time the answer would be different.

When using higher priced knives in the comparisons, it will, IMHO, always boil down to 1) collector desire and 2)the relative value the market currently places on the knifemaker's work. It will have less to do, it seems, with production or materials cost. The latter factors, it would seem to me, would only begin to have a real impact on price difference when you factor out anything other than intrinsic value.

Oh, and Kevin, your threads result in dynamite exchanges. Thank you and all participants for your consistency in provoking thought.

Thank you Betzner.
Speaking of stock removal makers, I feel inclined to mention D'Holder, as his knives are very realistically and fairly priced by him and dealers that handle his knives. And priced at or below comparable forged makers knives.
There has no doubt been money made on D’s knives by maker, dealer and collector.
 
I don't really have a lot to contribute to the conversation at this point, but I am going to start forging in the next 2-3 months or so and the topic of pricing (stock removal vs. forged - do I charge the same or not) has been on my mind as of late.

Just wanted to say thanks to Kevin and everyone who's contributed for the great thread. Keep it coming, and I'll keep learning.

Have a good one,

Nathan
 
I think there are several potential reasons:

1 - Leading collectors at the very top of the food chain are more interested in stainless than carbon steel. I remember reading an interview a while back in "La Passion des Couteaux" of an important collector (can't remember his name - he's the man who commissioned the "keshua" (sp?) series of knives with pierced and carved blades), and he said that he didn't collect carbon steel knives because whatever you did, something would happen at some point or another to the blade finish.

1bis - Leading collectors are more interested in the style of knives that is best / most often represented by stock removers (Loveless style, multiblade folders, etc). To the contrary, they are not that interested in bowies.

2 - Some stock removal blades take more work. When I look at the most popular stock removal knives, I often see mirror finish, deep hollow grinds, doubled grinds, etc. Those are very time consumming, and I am not sure we (forged blade afficionados) factor that work to the right extent. I know that I understand the work that goes into various aspects of a forged knife, but not so much of a stock removal piece.

3 - The ratio of forged to stainless collector pieces produced by be very different in the US than in other regions, e.g., Europe and Japan (in Japan, I consider the shinsakuto market to be completely different from the custom knife market). If this is true, the FX effect by itself would lift the price of stainless knives.

4 - The custom knife market for stainless is older and better established.

All those are possible reasons. I don't know if my hypotheses are true though. No doubt Les can bring some light...

I believe you are right Joss, there's no one thing, but probably haft a dozen or so factors contributing. It will no doubt be interesting to see where the prices and both markets are in another five years.

I'm betting on the forged side to strengthen.
 
I agree that there are many factors involved. Joss, I agree with you about stainless being the preferred steel of most collectors.
 
I agree with the cooments regarding the Loveless "school". I have seem numerous Loveless style knives from makers that I have never or barely heard of selling for some pretty long green. But I have seen some other interesting shifts in the forged market. The prices for knives by the tops guys like Jerry Fisk, Tim Hancock, Harvey Dean and others have been creeping up, but the one guy whose prices seemed to have climbed even more is Jay Hendrickson. And the interesting part is that it is his larger knives that seemd to have jumped in price a fair amount. The hunter that you could have gotten from Jay in 2005 for $800+ or so now seems to be going for $1100+ on at least one dealer site. BUT a good sized bowie in carbon steel with the pierced heat guard, cherry blossom type inlay and silver wire is likely to be listed for close to $5000. I saw a Maryland camp knife of Jay's at the Gator show in the spring and the price struck me as being VERY high. Looking back on it, I was misinformed...lol. It will be interesting to see not only if the market for Bill Moran knives takes off in a big way, but also if the stuff from guys like Jay, Barney Barnes and Mark Sentz follows suit and we see another "Loveless school" phenomenon.
The thing about Bob Loveless and BillMoran is that they became legends in their own lifetime due to the influence they had over the custom knife business. The only other guys that I can think of who fit into that category right now are Willaim Scagel and Bo Randall. A strong argument could be made that Buster Warenski, Michael Walker, Jerry Fisk and D.E. Henry are a half step behind. What I wonder is who the new legends will be. I can only comment on guys who forge, but right now, i would say that Jay Hendrickson, Al Pendray and possibly Bill Bagwell and Daryl Meier are probably the closest in my book. The next group would have to include Tim Hancock, Harvey Dean, and Don Fogg for starters. It will be interesting, as Kevin said, to see who is on this list 5 years from now. It is safe to say that if you were to peruse all of the purveyor websites, you would find that the vast majority of the high priced knives are stock removal an many of them are folders. But would I be way off base if I said that the forged knife market might be gowing at a faster pace than the custom market in general? Flame away, dear friends..lol
 
I'm seeing a lot of really good points here. I don't know if it would be proper for me to comment here, as it is a very close subject in regards to the way I prefer to make my knives, and to my philosophy of what a Lovett knife should be. I am getting ready for a local show near Austin this weekend. so my time is short. However, if you guys think it appropriate, there are a few thing I have noticed over the years that I think apply to this thread. Mike
 
I'm seeing a lot of really good points here. I don't know if it would be proper for me to comment here, as it is a very close subject in regards to the way I prefer to make my knives, and to my philosophy of what a Lovett knife should be. I am getting ready for a local show near Austin this weekend. so my time is short. However, if you guys think it appropriate, there are a few thing I have noticed over the years that I think apply to this thread. Mike

Mike, you are obviously very close to this subject, so I was hoping you would share your views and opinions.

By the way, I know we have one collector that's very happy tonight after what he received in the mail from you today (above). ;)
 
What that collector received was an absolutely gorgeous Loveless style Battle Blade and Chute Knife handled in elephant ivory with red liners. The polish and grinds on these knives are something to behold. Mikey you out did yourself on these two.
Off to Coop for photos.
 
What that collector received was an absolutely gorgeous Loveless style Battle Blade and Chute Knife handled in elephant ivory with red liners. The polish and grinds on these knives are something to behold. Mikey you out did yourself on these two.
Off to Coop for photos.
May I be the first to say that you suck?:grumpy: :p :D j/k.....pictures quickly, please:thumbup:
 
Not to beleaguer the point, however here's two beautiful hunters from two of the best and most well-known knifemakers in the world.
Yet the SR Johnson's dealer price is more than three times that of the Tim Hancock forged hunter's dealer price. Just under $3,000 vs just under $1,000.
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Kevin, Johnson has a much larger following (customer base) than Hancock.

The 'stainless stock removal knife' has a larger following than the forged blade also. But, I feel the forged blade is on the rise.

Are the higher-end forged blades under priced?

I'm just a folder guy, these fixed blades are kind of new to me :D

Also, I do believe the custom folder market is larger (maybe much larger) than the fixed blade market. But there is more interest in fixed blades on this forum.
 
Kevin, Johnson has a much larger following (customer base) than Hancock.

Yes, I agree bigger market including large international market and of course there's the whole Loveless thing, but 3 times more?

The 'stainless stock removal knife' has a larger following than the forged blade also. But, I feel the forged blade is on the rise.

Again I agree, on both accounts, however I think a large factor is that dealers are able to markup these knives considerbly where they are basically selling forged makers knives at makers price. There's nothing wrong with that as collectors are willing to pay it; for now anyway. Nordic sold that hunter for just about what Tim was asking @ Blade.

Are the higher-end forged blades under priced?

I think in quite a few cases they are. As per some discussion on the makers prices thread, forgers seem hesitant to raise prices.

I'm just a folder guy, these fixed blades are kind of new to me :D

You would never know it by the bowies you turn out ;)

Also, I do believe the custom folder market is larger (maybe much larger) than the fixed blade market. But there is more interest in fixed blades on this forum.

No question, the folder market is huge compared to fixed blade IMO too.

I'm just trying to raise awareness and get people thinking. Perhaps stock removal collectors need to look at what they are paying? Perhaps some forged makers are leaving $$ on the table. Don't know, a little confused, thus I started the thread.
 
What would be interesting is to understand the average age of the, say, Fisk vs. Johnson customer. If there's a clear and large difference, and if these two are indeed representative of "the market", then it would suggest a strong swing in the next 5-15 years. I also wonder what happens to the thousands of expensive stainless pieces when the current large collections loose their owners via ... hmm ... natural attrition. (If this sound flippant, it's not meant to be.)
 
No question, the folder market is huge compared to fixed blade IMO too.

I'm just trying to raise awareness and get people thinking. Perhaps stock removal collectors need to look at what they are paying? Perhaps some forged makers are leaving $$ on the table. Don't know, a little confused, thus I started the thread.

Got me thinking, good thread, Man!
 
Kevin - the Kressler knives are not likely a good basis for figuring stock removal pricing. Integral stock removal pieces are inherently more work (I assume you know this) and there aren't that many being made anyway.

After you are done grinding away steel from a very thick, thick bar of steel, then you have to fit the scale material in between two rock hard spots. I seem to recall a discussion by Loveless where he bitches and moans about just how difficult it is to do, but that was a long time ago.

Since my area of interest is folders, I don't have much comment on forged / stock pricing. However since Bailey Bradshaw and Michael Vagnino do forged and stock, fixed and folders, it might be interesting to compare their pricing for similar pieces - or perhaps even contact them. Bailey is pretty responsive on this forum.
 
I had a nice conversation with a Master Smith this morning whose knives are being referenced in this discussion. His remark to me was " when it comes right down to it when the knife is finished they're all stock removal knives."
Another recent post discussed the fact that ( in general and all things being equal) the older stock removal knives seem to lose value compared to the same knife currently being made. IMO this doesn't seem to apply to the forged knife market.
 
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