Forged vs Stock Removal Knives

Forged in fire is probably tilting things more in the favor of forging bladesmiths than ever. And the ABS already had done a good job at promoting their way of making knives. It was not pity for stock removal makers that led to this post, however.
 
I had a conversation with a man who said he learned in Japan from a Sword Smith. Yes edge packing can make a huge difference in the edges ability to cut.. ——I replied politely , so you are saying you can change the atomic structure of a steel/grain by tapping it with a hammer?——- He thought about it and realized how what he had said didn’t make much sense , then his face changed and he wouldn’t change his tune... One thing I’ve promised myself! As the years roll by, many things can change.—————as a kid we were taught that life needed Sunlight. It turns out not to be true at all.. I will always be open to new Science facts
 
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Great article Larrin. Thank you.

A question - How has the technology of Continuous Casting effected the "quality" of steel for knifemakers? I don't know if the steels we commonly use are produced this way or not. I imagine that the initial thickness for Continuous Cast steel is much less than the thickness of a traditionally cast ingot, and therefor is subject to less forging/rolling elongation. It's obviously more economical for the steel mills, but is it better for us?
 
JDWARE said:
Great article Larrin. Thank you.

A question - How has the technology of Continuous Casting effected the "quality" of steel for knifemakers? I don't know if the steels we commonly use are produced this way or not. I imagine that the initial thickness for Continuous Cast steel is much less than the thickness of a traditionally cast ingot, and therefor is subject to less forging/rolling elongation. It's obviously more economical for the steel mills, but is it better for us?
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I’m not a steelmaking expert. As I understand it high alloy tool steels are not well suited to continuous casting. Not sure how much it has caught on in tool steels, but is common for other types. It might be used in the strip steels, someone will have to remind me.
 
Nice article. To me it seems that unless you are chasing marginal gains in a specific case it doesn't really matter. It's more about which process is more effective for the desired goals and the working environment.

Bill DeShivs said:
Much of the forging lore comes from the automotive industry-where it was common knowledge that forged engine parts were stronger than cast.
VERY few knifemakers are casting knives, and the steel makers are using is already forged in the manufacturing process.
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My understanding was this is more the different casting and forging process used. The casting processes are generally cruder, but there are some high tech casting approaches that don't have the problems of the lower tech ones. All of which is pretty irrelevant to knives, they deal with very different loads to crankshafts

AVigil said:
You totally did not take into consideration how the smiths spirit is imparted to the steel or the benefits of Yak Urine in the quench :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
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Nah, you want kangaroo urine. you get better toughness from the added spring :P
 
Thanks Larrin for a very straight to the point article, much appreciated when dealing with a such a polarising topic. :thumbsup:
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
I had the conversation with a man who said he learned in Japan from a Sword Smith. Yes edge packing can make a huge difference in the edges ability to cut.. ——I replied politely , so you are saying you can change the atomic structure of a steel/grain by tapping it with a hammer?——- He thought about it and realized how what he had said didn’t make much sense , then his face changed and he wouldn’t change his tune... One thing I’ve promised myself! As the years roll by, many things can change.—————as a kid we were taught that life needed Sunlight. It turns out not to be true at all.. I will always be open to new Science faces
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Except, of course, the crude bloom steel that Japanese swordsmiths work with actually does benefit from the folding/welding/forging process. Which I’m sure is where the edge-packing myth originated
 
So is there a difference between steel which has been rolled into a large plate and cut into convenient rectangular stock vs round bar, which (I think) is full reduction from the ingot? The round bar would have seen many times more reduction in the mill.
 
Tenebr0s said:
So is there a difference between steel which has been rolled into a large plate and cut into convenient rectangular stock vs round bar, which (I think) is full reduction from the ingot? The round bar would have seen many times more reduction in the mill.
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I don't understand how round bar would see more reduction.
 
Then I'm probably wrong!
My thinking was that if a 1" round bar has been reduced completely from the ingot then it has a greater total reduction in volume than a large plate which is then cut... I don't know what the normal plate dimensions are, but let's say it's a 4' wide plate of .25" thickness, then a 12" length cut of it has a volume of 144 cubic inches. 12" of 1" round bar has a volume of 9.4 cubic inches.

So, if you're cutting the wide plate longitudinally into flat bar stock, you end up with material which has not been as reduced as the round bar. Maybe it makes no difference in the end; but that's what my question was about.
 
It's either rolled down to the final sheet thickness or down to the final diameter for a round. Reduction is the same.
 
I guess I’m really not following...
Let’s say hypothetically this was damascus with the layers running vertically. In the round bar, all layers would still be there. Rectangular stock cut from the wide plate would have fewer layers than the round bar. No?
 
Tenebr0s said:
I guess I’m really not following...
Let’s say hypothetically this was damascus with the layers running vertically. In the round bar, all layers would still be there. Rectangular stock cut from the wide plate would have fewer layers than the round bar. No?
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Maybe someone else understands what you are talking about and can help.
 
Gee whiz...

Has an ingot rolled into a 1” diameter round bar been reduced more than an ingot rolled into a 4” round bar?
 
Ok, and if we sliced the 4” bar lengthwise into 1” thick pieces, those pieces would still have been reduced less than the completely rolled 1” bar.

So, if flat bar were rolled to its final thickness and width, this wouldn’t be an issue. My question came from the fact that it’s often rolled into wide sheets. So, like cutting up the 4” round bar, we cut up the plate. That’s all I was wondering about.
 
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