Forged vs Stock Removal Knives

[Natlek]

No one should take your opinion seriously too.

I hate when a person like you keep trolling people who who actually take their time and resource to contributing all of this test.

Let me tell you something .......You can believe in that test as much you want ! I don t ! I don t believe in result they get .Want reason for that ? How in the name of God you can make test with ten HT oven , eleven toaster oven done by twelve knife maker ? How you can get reliable result when different/same steel are HT in different/oven condition ??? How ? Explain that to me , please ? One more thing , where in this last article is tested and proved that there is no difference between forged and stock removed blade , I must miss that part ?
Do you ever have opportunity to see how real laboratory for testing steel look ??
You will see things like this there ..........they use toaster oven there to make toast , not for backing steel . You can HT any steel you want in oven like Evenheat and probably you will get satisfying results but for test like that no way that it is good and reliable enough to get accurate data ...Now I m out of this .......

I say it once .....thanks to Larrin for his effort to sort everything from books /from metallurgy and materials engineering point / which is knife related in one place for us .

 

[Willie71]

So if you know that someone is going to give you an opinion that you don’t like, and then you call them out and wonder why they haven’t commented... who’s really trolling who?

This article dispelled all of the nonsense he spews, and the references are not just the testing we have done.

 

[Josh Rider]

This article dispelled all of the nonsense he spews, and the references are not just the testing we have done.

C’mon, that was funny.

I think we’re forgetting a big part of why forging is great. It’s a lot of fun!

 

[DeadboxHero]

And reason for that is because personally I don t take ALL your test relevant .HT on all that samples you test was done in most unreliable oven and temper was done in toaster oven !

I don t take seriously someone who write this ......

Wouldn t expect drastic difference ?????? is scientific answer ? Imagine that ......I wouldn t except ?? So is there difference and HOW MUCH drastic it is ??
Where is test for comparison between forged and stock removal blade ? And who done that ?
Carry on , I do not care about this topic without real proof .You ask about my opinion so there it is ..

Natty,
Do you have any knife testing to share?

 

[DevinT]

Proper forging can be beneficial, improper forging can be detrimental. >99.999% of the steel we buy to make knives from has been forged when we buy it.

The best heat treating is done in small batches by experienced makers/heat treaters. There is more control of the steps involved, the steel heats up faster, goes to quench faster, quenches faster, goes to cryo faster, goes to the tempering oven faster, can be straightened out of the quench etc. Large batch heat treaters group steel according to aust temps, some steels are over soaked, some are under soaked, most bulk batches sit in the furnace for hours before going to cryo.

Those that argue heat treating should at least have a hardness tester and a furnace and some experience heat treating.

Larrin prepared multi dozens of the coupons for metallography that members here have done and examined them under SEM, along with hardness tests and they showed nothing to indicate that they were improperly heat treated.

Hoss

 

[ShannonSteelLabs]

Natty,
Do you have any knife testing to share?

Proof is in the pudding!

Have him send a sample and we can get it tested and micrographed.

 

[shqxk]

Let me tell you something .......You can believe in that test as much you want ! I don t ! I don t believe in result they get .Want reason for that ? How in the name of God you can make test with ten HT oven , eleven toaster oven done by twelve knife maker ? How you can get reliable result when different/same steel are HT in different/oven condition ??? How ? Explain that to me , please ? One more thing , where in this last article is tested and proved that there is no difference between forged and stock removed blade , I must miss that part ?
Do you ever have opportunity to see how real laboratory for testing steel look ??
You will see things like this there ..........they use toaster oven there to make toast , not for backing steel . You can HT any steel you want in oven like Evenheat and probably you will get satisfying results but for test like that no way that it is good and reliable enough to get accurate data ...Now I m out of this .......

I say it once .....thanks to Larrin for his effort to sort everything from books /from metallurgy and materials engineering point / which is knife related in one place for us .

So you sums up opinion that Evenheat is not reliable base on some random hearsay and youtube video right?

Even more funny that you took a photo of vacuum furnace form google to be an example of your "reliable" HT equipment

I have been sent knives to those commercial vacuum furnace HT from various company, which some of the furnace cost over a million dollar and I can assure you these kind of furnace guarantee over soaked on all of your knife. Also slower quench cooling rate thus lower hardness compare to HT with my kiln.

Here is some pictures last time I visiting commercial HT for 54 blades of D2 and 440c. See the 1 hour 55 mins soak time? The hardness also lower than what I can get with my kiln, 440c got less than 58hrc after 1886F + cryogenic and 400F tempering.


I only use Vacuum HT service when do cheaper model in large batch because they are much cheaper.

This is when I sent M390 to them. Notice the 150min soak? The hardness also came out only 59rc.

For higher priced knife I HT myself with my kiln. While it might not looks super high tech but it definitely yields measurable better result. 62.7hrc with 440c.

FYI vacuum furnace can't be use HT oil quenching steel. I speak from my own experience not from some random internet googling


Nothing wrong having test coupons HT from 10 different kiln/oven as long as the temperature/time being use is accurate. I think you should know that steel are designed to be able to HT by individual end user too!

 

[Natlek]

Even more funny that you took a photo of vacuum furnace form google to be an example of your "reliable" HT equipment

I have been sent knives to those commercial vacuum furnace HT from various company, which some of the furnace cost over a million dollar and I can assure you these kind of furnace guarantee over soaked on all of your knife. Also slower quench cooling rate thus lower hardness compare to HT with my kiln.

Thanks for your post .I contacted Bohler and give them to read your post .They say they will dismiss the director who has purchased their laboratory equipment and that they will ASAP purchase Evenheat oven for their laboratory ,they have some doubt about which toaster oven is best for tempering , do you have any recommendation for them ?? Circus !!
What you show on pictures are INDUSTRIAL HT oven , alloo !! I don t care what they do and why they hold your blade for hours in oven ,it is irrelevant here ...alloo again !! My pictures of oven are from Bohler laboratory /FROM NET of course / .......enough trolling , this for me end here !

 

[shqxk]

Thanks for your post .I contacted Bohler and give them to read your post .They say they will dismiss the director who has purchased their laboratory equipment and that they will ASAP purchase Evenheat oven for their laboratory ,they have some doubt about which toaster oven is best for tempering , do you have any recommendation for them ?? Circus !!
What you show on pictures are INDUSTRIAL HT oven , alloo !! I don t care what they do and why they hold your blade for hours in oven ,it is irrelevant here ...alloo again !! My pictures of oven are from Bohler laboratory /FROM NET of course / .......enough trolling , this for me end here !

Do you even have a clue the "Bohler" furnace that you took the picture from google is made by Schmetz, a german company who specialized in making vacuum furnace which also the same company who make furnaces in my picture
They are all INDUSTRIAL HT furnace FYI. And they will always oversoak all HT pieces due to the nature of how furnace operate. They are big and heat up much slower.

HT with Vacuum furnace we need to put the work in at room temp while most knifemakers prefer to put knife in at pre-heat or aus-temp because we want the knife to be in critical temp as short as necessary.

Speaking about toaster oven, there are vary in quality depending on your budget just like everything in this world. Some cooking require accurate temperature too!

There are no such a thing as laboratory HT equipment. If a company purchased Evenheat, Paragon, Cress oven or some random charcoal forge to be use in their lab, then its their laboratory equipment. I think even a kid would understand this.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Thanks for your post .I contacted Bohler and give them to read your post .They say they will dismiss the director who has purchased their laboratory equipment and that they will ASAP purchase Evenheat oven for their laboratory ,they have some doubt about which toaster oven is best for tempering , do you have any recommendation for them ?? Circus !!
What you show on pictures are INDUSTRIAL HT oven , alloo !! I don t care what they do and why they hold your blade for hours in oven ,it is irrelevant here ...alloo again !! My pictures of oven are from Bohler laboratory /FROM NET of course / .......enough trolling , this for me end here !

Natty,
Is your knife testing and heat treatment from the Bohler laboratory? Where is the knife testing results from your knives?
Do you test your knives?

 

[tkroenlein]

Folks, there's literally no sense in arguing about the veracity of testing with equipment with someone who's demonstrated that they don't know how that equipment works.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yes, let it go folks. A fool is more exposed when he is only talking to himself.

If Natlek posts and no one responds, did he make a sound?

Natlek, I again ask that if you don't have direct information to add, based on personal testing, please don't post.

 

[Lotmom]

What the hell happened here while I was gone

 

[ShannonSteelLabs]

What the hell happened here while I was gone

Natlek knows all apparently.

-said 2 Hour soak times DONT MATTER.
-Even heat ovens are useless.
-Toaster ovens cant be used to temper.
-He forges.
-Uses industrial vacuum furnaces
Over soaks the steel. (Apparently large grain growth doesnt matter)
-provides no evidence of any of his claims .

 

[Gossman Knives]

Thanks Larrin for another awesome post! Keep up the great work providing valuable information
Scott

 

[Willie71]

Let me tell you something .......You can believe in that test as much you want ! I don t ! I don t believe in result they get .Want reason for that ? How in the name of God you can make test with ten HT oven , eleven toaster oven done by twelve knife maker ? How you can get reliable result when different/same steel are HT in different/oven condition ??? How ? Explain that to me , please ? One more thing , where in this last article is tested and proved that there is no difference between forged and stock removed blade , I must miss that part ?
Do you ever have opportunity to see how real laboratory for testing steel look ??
You will see things like this there ..........they use toaster oven there to make toast , not for backing steel . You can HT any steel you want in oven like Evenheat and probably you will get satisfying results but for test like that no way that it is good and reliable enough to get accurate data ...Now I m out of this .......

I say it once .....thanks to Larrin for his effort to sort everything from books /from metallurgy and materials engineering point / which is knife related in one place for us .

So, they guys forging blades are using this type of equipment to heat treat them? Did you look at the micrographs of the steel I, DevinT, Larrin, and others submitted? What is your concern with those structures? Can you explain why our results mirrored the datasheets so closely in expected results? What is the actual concern here? We haven’t actually tested toughness of forged vs. stock removal blades, as all we tested was standardized un-notched specimens. You don’t like our test results, but this article wasn’t about our test results.

 

[Willie71]

Yes, let it go folks. A fool is more exposed when he is only talking to himself.

If Natlek posts and no one responds, did he make a sound?

Natlek, I again ask that if you don't have direct information to add, based on personal testing, please don't post.

Whoops. Sorry, I missed this.

 

[DevinT]

Most of my coupons were forged.

Hoss

 

[ShannonSteelLabs]

Yes, let it go folks. A fool is more exposed when he is only talking to himself.

If Natlek posts and no one responds, did he make a sound?

Natlek, I again ask that if you don't have direct information to add, based on personal testing, please don't post.

My bad!
Didnt see when you posted.