Four day hiking trip and no knives allowed?

Thomas Linton said:
Found it did you? Good. You note the operative words "large" and "unnecessary." I do as part of my role in training adult leaders for three Scout Councils.

I also note that the official policy does not say that even such "large" knives are prohibited, much less that non-"large" sheath knives are prohibited.

I also point out that Council "trading posts" at camps that prohibit all fixed-blade knives sell such knives as part of the official BSA "Chef's Kit" and that Scout Troops that prohibit all fixed-blade knives almost always have them in the gear they issue to the Scouts.

So rather than take the opportunity to teach youth how to safety use a tool that they will, with virtually 100% certainly, encounter, we are to pretend that no such tool exists? Marvelous. :rolleyes:

And hand axes? Perfectly acceptable -- and far more hazardous.

The local policies are the result of ignorance, prejudice, and/or stupidity. I have talked (calmly - as one should to the insane) to the persons responsible for such rules. They are not "outdoor" people in any sense. In fact they have very little or absolutlely no outdoor experience -- "suits." They have no experience -- or facts gained otherwise -- to support their paranoia.

I have an obligation to be polite. I have no obligation to help them in their irrationality.
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The scouting program fostered my interest in knives. I think the current policies and trends are the result of, as you put it, "suits" or administrators. They sense the political undercurrent and respond accordingly. My high school had a below ground shooting range for the Army ROTC. Wonder how many schools are being built with ranges these days?

GB
 
You could tie a small (closed) knife up in a condom and either swallow it or insert it into a handy body orifice :)

Seriously though, I doubt that you will get a personal search. We might expect that at an airport, or when a policeman has a warrant....but at a camp where you have not caused trouble already surely you will not be forced to strip, or tip your bags out on to the floor.

I too have wandered through a lot of wilderness without having to use a knife. But I still would always want to have one with me. If you keep it out of sight and don't talk about it you should be fine. And if you do get caught with one, make sure it is a fairly small, innocent-looking affair (that just happened to be in the change compartment of your wallet or whatever). I currently have a miniature folder and a mini-Bic lighter in my wallet. I've never had to use either of them, but is just nice to know they are there if I ever misplace my more well-used tools.

Gotta say, if I was organizing a camp for a bunch of exuberant young city slickers I would be nervous about some of the gung-ho types running around with big blades they'd bought especially for the occasion.

I hope I get to read your account of how the trip went after you return.
 
Gerberblades said:
Actually, the policy reads: A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish.

On a local level, this has been construed as applying to all fixed blades and not just "large" sheath knives. It probably stems from a concern about public perceptions of the display of sheath knives compared to less obvious pocket knives and cased folders. Hence my reference to unofficial. It probably isn't ignorance or prejudice but simply a misinterpretation of the policy.

My point is that even among outdoor oriented groups, there are differences in opinions about the types of knives that are carried or in Marzola's case, if they should be carried at all. Hopefully, when he returns from his trip, he can solve this particular mystery for us.

GB
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Speaking as a Scout from Cub to Explorer, in my experience anything but very small slipjoint knives were openly discouraged within my troop, as in a number of other troops I knew. Of course, axe throwing and Order of the Arrow ordeals were encouraged; but anything with a blade even approaching three inches with a locking mechanism was practically touted as a 'unnecessary liability,' or a 'weapon' that 'no good scout would carry.'

I don't know what it was like outside the San Gabriel Vally/LA County scout district, but there you go.
 
outofgum said:
There might be some history behind the policy that we are not aware of. Some hiker brandishing a large knife or injuring someone else or himself. Maybe you are expected to take a knife and the written policy covers their butt in case something happens? Always gotta think about liability.
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Okay let's assume that there is some bizarre one-time thing that happened with a knife and the people running the event are trying to cover their butts legally. It's improbable, but it's not impossible.

If the whole thing is completely innocent, why are they not being up front about the banned items from the get-go? Does it make sense that honorable, reasonable people wouldn't disclose the fact that certain ordinary objects and tools are being banned until AFTER the participants have paid their money? I would not say that was very expectable. That bit of trickiness seems to cast a very dark shadow on the whole thing, honesty-wise.

If they are being dishonest about the allowable equipment, should they be trusted to take a bunch of young people God-only-knows how far out into the woods without those people having means of being able to call for help, run away, or protect themselves in any way from raw nature, which effectively makes the woods a de facto prison?

It's not that this absolutely will happen. It's that it could happen, and the kids have nothing to fall back on if it does. It's not entirely unexpectable that bad things could happen, or that bad things are designed to happen based on the fact that one bad thing already has happened, i.e. they seemingly cheated someone out of their money by not being up front about the special and wierd conditions of the event before that person paid for honest money for it. If that's true, then there is a deliberate plan to effectively coerce participation through financial extortion, and that is illegal.
 
LittleHairyApe said:
... how far out into the woods ...
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The hike may well be along a busy trail and may never be far out of sight of houses or towns.

My discomfort with the program lies in the lack of clear information on anything except their obscure and troubling instructions.
 
As someone said, take a sleeping pad. I have found on the biker campouts after 1 night sleeping on the ground women will find a soft place to sleep VERY attractive.
And screw em take a knife.
 
"I wouldn't be surprised if they do a pack check."

Coote beat me to it. Pack search yes, cavity search not likely. This is one situation in which a SAK Farmer outclasses a Busse for sure! A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Mac
 
coote said:
Gotta say, if I was organizing a camp for a bunch of exuberant young city slickers I would be nervous about some of the gung-ho types running around with big blades they'd bought especially for the occasion.
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I would be too, but you know a good lesson for these types would be to let them bring their big blades with them and see how many get tired after four days of lugging their Rambo "survival" knives around. :p I bet after one day they would want to ditch the things. At least afterwards they would have a practical understanding about knife selection.
 
who got anything against big rambo "survival" knives!?
DSCN1469.jpg

hehe, i switched to the F1 by now^^
 
Marzola...Have a great time if you decide to go. Do what makes you feel comfortable for this trip and I'm sure you will have a great time. When you get back, please post detail about your experience. And take lots of pics!!!
 
Wow, we've run the gamut here.
Interrogation techniques.
Mind control.
Cult indoctrination.
Survival batonning.
Time deprivation.
Legal/illegal pack searches.

What a soap opera.
Face it, we are the minority. People who actually know which half of a knife is sharp.

The last thing the folks running this program is a bunch of testosterone laden teens running around with sharp objects that they don't know how to handle properly.
Since they're not teaching knife use it is far safer for the program & for the (non-knifeknut) participants.
Look at all the threads here, that are about how a knife knut lent a 'non' knife knut their knife and the 'non' cut themself.

If the program is providing all of the essentials do you really think that the trip will be that far from the road?
Do you really think the team leader will be carrying food for 8?
Water as well?

This is in Connecticut, right?
Along the AT.
Not remote Alaska or the Amazon rain forest.

One of my daughter's college friends went off to the jungles of French Guiana to study beetles with a program much like the one above, but much, much more rustic. It was part of her school work, a trip put together by the school. Sleeping in hammocks, communal cooking fires, no shelters...
She survived without a knife. In fact she had a fine time except for bathing in the creek and eating foods she didn't like (pickey eater).

The no knife rule is there to protect the program (legally), as well as the (potentially stoopid) participants from themselves (& each other).

The OP should talk to his buddy and I bet he'll find out what a walk in the park it'll be.
And if they try to control his mind he should remember that he doesn't have to listen :D
 
CT ? not the wilderness ? In the news today a woman in Cheshire strangled a racoon after it attacked a child .It had rabies....With a knife she could have had it skinned, butchered and on the BBQ in minutes !!
 
Carrying a knife and whether or not you'll need to use a knife are two completely different arguments that appear to have been combined. There's a very good chance that he won't need one or will be provided with one when needed, but the question is more about their requirement that one deliberately go out unprepared. This is a forum about wilderness preparedness after all, so of course that idea will be met with immediate and vocal resistance. I'm sure this thread would have a very different flavour if this was a forum for victims of knife violence, for example.

To be truly prepared, one must think of any eventuality possible. I'm not leaning very far to the cult side of the argument myself, but anyone with preparedness in mind must at least consider it. Everyone here seems to carry a second sharp thing while in the bush, myself included even though I've never lost or broken a knife...
 
Ebbtide said:
One of my daughter's college friends went off to the jungles of French Guiana to study beetles with a program much like the one above, but much, much more rustic. It was part of her school work, a trip put together by the school. Sleeping in hammocks, communal cooking fires, no shelters...
She survived without a knife. In fact she had a fine time except for bathing in the creek and eating foods she didn't like (pickey eater).
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Her parents need to be beaten with a knotted rope if she didn't have a knife and a few other essentials. The day I depend on someone else to take care of my core gear ole scratch will be eating snowcones. Chris
 
First and foremost, discuss this all with your parents and trust their judgement...IMO, participating in the trip includes agreeing to the rules.

As an aside...many thru hikers, especially on the AT, will carry no more than a small box opener or a multi-tool or a Sak. It's all about weight vs. need for the hiker. The trip operator does not want the liability and worries associated with knives. The same may go for watches and electronics since in addition to possible mind games, banning watches and electronics means they do not get broken, lost, or stolen.
 
Marzola said:
Hi, i've been reading these forums for a while and figured i'd make my first post.

So i'm entering my freshmen year of college and am doing a pre-orientation hiking trip. It is four days of hiking in Western Connecticut and Massachusetts (i believe we are hiking part of the Appalachian Trail). I'll be in a group of about ten other students and a person from a wilderness school in CT (great hollow wilderness school). I am quite looking forward to this trip as a way to meet some of my new classmates and hopefully do some quality hiking (I even got a new backpack for this trip).


So I got the list of equipment to bring about a week ago (a very basic list with out many details and somewhat lacking). On the list of what not to bring it said no knives of any type. Like many people here, I always EDC a good folder and feel naked with out it, and I wouldn't even dream of going on a long hiking trip with out at least a SAK.

So I figured I would ask some people with more experience than I have. Should I go knifeless? Or should I bring a SAK or even my EDC (a kabar MULE), or forget i even read that and pack my RAT 5 (inside my backpack until i actually need it)?

Another odd thing is the list said no watches, which was happeed to be in bold and underlined. Any idea why they would say that?
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I would ignore the no knife policy and carry concealed , but that is me.
 
Ramm9 said:
IMO, participating in the trip includes agreeing to the rules
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Totally disagree.

Stupid and silly rules are just that: stupid and silly.

Blindly following said stupid and silly rules is simple-minded and foolish.

Entrusting your life to a stranger is the only thing that's worse.

If the hike had other things to offer me, then I'd still go, but with my modifications of the stupid and silly rules. (IE; ignoring them)

.
 
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