Frame lock compared to back lock

jbmonkey said:
nope. he made the liner lock in 1980 something as known today when done right of course. i rwad a credinle article on he made an earlier version kinda like a frame lock for a lack of a better description. somehow he went forward with the liner lock version instead of a frame like version.

there is a great article on this....that covers a lot of what im saying....
http://www.knife-expert.com/liners.txt
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Oh ok.
He didn't invent the liner lock, he just modernized it.
 
stabman said:
I tested it with weight hanging from a blade that slipped without grip pressure (cheap Chinese steel frame-lock).
My grip made it work, where before it was in essence a really weak slip-joint.

It is possible that I just have extra awesome flesh though. ;)
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yeah you do.:)
 
http://www.coldsteel.com/espada-extra-large.html
Consider the forces exerted on the Triad lock on the huge XL Espada . If you take a full grip far back on this nearly 17" OAL monster , you have 12 to 13" of knife up ahead . That's a lot more leverage than most folders ever have to contend with . And even with all the crazy stuff that people do with these knives , they don't seem to fail much .

I don't have the biggest Espada , the big Rajah is about my carry limit on a folder . The Raj I have used hard chopping and even as a throwing knife . The pivot loosened up but the lock held . You do have to be wary of even pocket lint preventing complete lockup . But once fully engaged the Triad comes about as close to a fixed blade as you can get .
 
kniferbro said:
There are definitely knives that the grip reinforces the lock no doubt. I just think there are a lot of frame locks that don't do this and the common consensus is that any frame lock will. It should be looked at on a knife by knife basis IMO.

But you probably do just have extra awesome flesh, hardened from a life of fighting crime no doubt! :D
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It is true that not all frame-locks allow the grip to reinforce the lock; I have a few where the fingers don't add any pressure at all, due to handle design, lock positioning, etc.

And someone has to fight that crime! :D
 
Since the inception of multi tools that is what I carried and never had a interest in weak folding pocket knives. So I would carry a multi tool and some kind of retractable razor blade in my pocket because when you go in homes people don't like you pulling out a fixed blade. So when a few years ago I heard of the Triad lock that became a knife I could feel 100% confidence I could cut, pry, pound and abuse for a multitude of uses without fear of it failing. No other folding knife would I take out on the field with me. But I have begun a small collection and interest in other knives for light weekend carry, I just treat them like I would a slip joint.
 
Not sure why you singled out frame locks only to ask about. There are a lot of modern lock alternatives to lockbacks.

Lockbacks are fairly common and easy for most people to understand. Many years ago when I used them I found that they didn't function well when a little bit dirty. I've had much better luck with liner locks and framelocks, among other modern locks. But the big thing for me is that lockbacks are 2-hand operation knives, other more modern locks are made for one-hand operation. Many times I've been up on a ladder holding something I needed to cut in one hand, I can pull the pocket-clipped knife out with the other hand, open it and cut the object, then close it and clip it back in my pocket with the other hand and never even have to look at it. Can't do that with a lockback knife. But lockback knives are very secure if that is important to you. I read where people say that they can operate a lockback knife one-handed but that is bordering on a circus trick sleight of hand and in my case unfortunately involves a lot of blood.
 
bdmicarta said:
Not sure why you singled out frame locks only to ask about. There are a lot of modern lock alternatives to lockbacks.

Lockbacks are fairly common and easy for most people to understand. Many years ago when I used them I found that they didn't function well when a little bit dirty. I've had much better luck with liner locks and framelocks, among other modern locks. But the big thing for me is that lockbacks are 2-hand operation knives, other more modern locks are made for one-hand operation. Many times I've been up on a ladder holding something I needed to cut in one hand, I can pull the pocket-clipped knife out with the other hand, open it and cut the object, then close it and clip it back in my pocket with the other hand and never even have to look at it. Can't do that with a lockback knife. But lockback knives are very secure if that is important to you. I read where people say that they can operate a lockback knife one-handed but that is bordering on a circus trick sleight of hand and in my case unfortunately involves a lot of blood.
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I was interested in comparing these two approaches to locking systems. This is not meant to imply these two are the best or only options. It happens that most of my personal folders are either frame locks or back locks (with a few variants such as Axis, Arc, and compression), and I was interested specifically in how these two lock types compare in the sense of pros and cons of each.

On your comment about back locks, I agree with that. About the one handed thing, it can depend on the specific back lock implementation. For instance, I can easily flick open my Spyderco back locks one handed. And close them one handed. I was never able to do that (safely) with something like a Buck 110.
 
bdmicarta said:
But the big thing for me is that lockbacks are 2-hand operation knives, other more modern locks are made for one-hand operation. Many times I've been up on a ladder holding something I needed to cut in one hand, I can pull the pocket-clipped knife out with the other hand, open it and cut the object, then close it and clip it back in my pocket with the other hand and never even have to look at it. Can't do that with a lockback knife. But lockback knives are very secure if that is important to you. I read where people say that they can operate a lockback knife one-handed but that is bordering on a circus trick sleight of hand and in my case unfortunately involves a lot of blood.
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This will depend entirely on what sort of knife you're holding.

I will give you that say cold steel triad locks are way more difficult to open than my say, leatherman multitools with linerlocks, but it's not impossible or require "circus trick sleight of hand" to do it, not even close.

On my cold steel 4-Max which have the most massive lock on any knife I know of, I can either open the knife entirely by the thumb stud or open it slightly with the thumb stud and flick it open the rest of the way. Not an issue at all.

For normal EDC I would probably pick a framelock or a linerlock, but if I was a tradesman that had to rely on my knife for my heavy duty work it would be a backlock every time.

I carry my leatherman skeletool cx for edc, but when I'm on the farm or out in the woods I bring a tri-ad lock.

I would prefer a fixed blade, but people freak out around here if they see you wearing a fixed blade. Folders are more discreet so a strong backlock makes sense to me.
 
maximus83 said:
I think at this point, it's safe to conclude a few consensus points:
  • Strength is an important lock factor. But it can be measured different ways (some contrived, some more real-world).
    • For typical modern EDC knife tasks, well executed locks of several types can be "strong enough" (that was Cliff Stamp's point).
  • Reliability is another important lock factor. Maybe it's strong, but will it fail or disengage on you under certain conditions, such as getting dirt in the mechanism, or a spring or part breaks, or you grip the knife "wrong"?
  • Usability is an important factor. So it's strong, and reliable. But is it hard to use? Does the lock stick? Is it hard to open or close one-handed? Is the open or close process risky due to the lock design?
  • Maintainability is an important factor. Does the lock mechanism need to be adjusted a lot? Does it easily accumulate dirt requiring it to be cleaned more often in order to remain reliable? Is it HARD to clean when you have to clean it?
When I take all these factors into account, and I assume that I use a well designed quality lock, and I'm using the knife for typical modern EDC tasks (not batoning it, etc.), then strength becomes (for me) not the only or even most important factor. When I look at strength that is good enough for EDC tasks, and then I also consider reliability, usability, and maintainability, some of the modern lock designs like say the Spyderco compression lock, or the modern frame lock like on ZT or Chris Reeve knives, seem like appealing options. On the other hand, if I were going to be doing super extreme things with a folder (which again, I don't because I don't trust folders for that kind of work), then as others have said, I'd probably find a strong back lock like a Cold Steel with a triad lock, and there, the key thing would be to keep that complex internal mechanism super clean, so that it stays reliable.
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Early in the thread you reacted negatively to something Hickory & Steel said. You basically said the same thing in more elaborate terms. I tend to really like Spyderco's compression back lock. It can still be one handed if you like to open a knife that way and I find the lock quite strong or as strong as I would ever need.

Then there is personal preference involved and this is where I look at the other locking mechanisms. I tend to like Benchmade's AXIS lock a lot and find it quite safe. But getting back to what Hickory & Steel said, if you use a folding knife as a knife for normal kinds of things which might include light prying we all do, even a traditional slip joint with a half stop is fairly safe. But I certainly don't want to hang a 100 lb weight on one to test its strength as nothing I do pushes the strength limits generally. I suppose the biggest safety thing with a traditional is trying to pierce something "thick" with the point. With that one needs to be careful but less careful with the stronger locking mechanisms.

But the thread in general is a discussion of the various locking mechanisms and there are certainly personal preferences involved in what you choose. For me, I like pretty much like Spydie's back lock for its simplicity. But I float around to most of the locking types. Good thread topic by the way.
 
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22-rimfire said:
Early in the thread you reacted negatively to something Hickory & Steel said. You basically said the same thing in more elaborate terms. I tend to really like Spyderco's compression back lock. It can still be one handed if you like to open a knife that way and I find the lock quite strong or as strong as I would ever need.

Then there is personal preference involved and this is where I look at the other locking mechanisms. I tend to like Benchmade's AXIS lock a lot and find it quite safe. But getting back to what Hickory & Steel said, if you use a folding knife as a knife for normal kinds of things which might include light prying we all do, even a traditional slip joint with a half stop is fairly safe. But I certainly don't want to hang a 100 lb weight on one to test its strength as nothing I do pushes the strength limits generally. I suppose the biggest safety thing with a traditional is trying to pierce something "thick" with the point. With that one needs to be careful but less careful with the stronger locking mechanisms.

But the thread in general is a discussion of the various locking mechanisms and there are certainly personal preferences involved in what you choose. For me, I like pretty much like Spydie's back lock for its simplicity. But I float around to most of the locking types. Good thread topic by the way.
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I think there's some agreement between the 'consensus summary' I tried to write and one of Hickory's implied points about lock strength--that several modern locking systems can be "good enough" for typical EDC tasks. However, the thing I reacted to in the original post was my perception that he was going farther than that, implying that lock systems don't matter, it isn't worth talking about the pros/cons because anything beyond light tasks is improper folder usage and you just don't know how to use a folder if you're interested in locking systems, just stop discussing it and go get a fixed blade. IMO, it would be kind of boring, on a knife forum, to end every discussion about different folders and lock systems with don't think about it, if you're going to do anything more challenging than opening boxes, you're abusing your folder and you should go get a fixed blade. I actually don't think that was Hickory's intention, as he clarified later, but that was the perception I reacted to.

Also, I was a little confused by your mention of "compression back lock." Spyderco has compression locks (like PM2, Para 3), and also has back locks (native, some Manix, Chinook, others). Do you mean the back locks? I actually like both of these locking systems, a lot. One practical thing I like about the compression lock is it allows for an "open" simpler system that, similar to a frame lock, does not tend to trap as much gunk in the internals. I've found my PM2 to be safe and fairly easy to close one handed, and "strong enough" for the things I use it for.
 
NorseVet said:
This will depend entirely on what sort of knife you're holding. I will give you that say cold steel triad locks are way more difficult to open than my say, leatherman multitools with linerlocks, but it's not impossible or require "circus trick sleight of hand" to do it, not even close.
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It's not the OPENING that is a problem, it's the CLOSING. With Spyderco people tell me that if you hold your hand just right the blade will drop without cutting you. But what if you are on a ladder, or in the mud, or working under stress- maybe you can't hold your hand just right. And I've tried this with other knives with very similar designs and have the scars to prove it. With a lockback knife it's not a question of whether it will cut you or not, it's a question of how long can you get away with it before it cuts you.
 
Hickory n steel said:
You would probably come away with much less harm if any at all, but how when just cutting stuff normally will a non garbage knife close on you.
I am simply asking because I've never had even a slipjoint with weak springs close on me.
I could see an issue when trying to penetrate thick materials, but I always hold the blade near the tip when piercing thick things because I don't want to stab myself if the blade slips.

Am I not right in thinking that the most Force is exerted in the opened direction ?
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Yes, you are correct in that.
You are also correct in that when properly used, a lock is not necessary. Consider how many hundreds of years friction and slipjoints were used before a blade lock of any kind was invented. Most of those folk kept all their digits, and in many cases, used their knives just as hard or harder in their everyday tasks than we do today.

In answer to the OP's question, I prefer a backlock, such as that found on the Buck 110 and others of its ilk.
I am not fond of the mid-back lock, as the few I have handled seemed harder to release the lock. Probably has something to do with the leverage.
I have never seen a Buck 110, or Schrade 6OT/7OT/LB7 or similar have the lock fail under normal use. (which does not include stabbing some poor car)
I have seen frame lock and liner lock knives that did have the lock fail; after the fact. I do not know what they were doing when the lock failed. As far as I know, none of the owners of said knives lost any fingers, but a couple did get cut.
Frame locks and liner locks might fail if there is insufficient contact with the blade. I know some here on the forums have complained about the liner or frame lock just barely contacting the blade, and ask how to adjust it.
The backlock never has that problem. The lock bar fits into a notch in the tang. It is not going anywhere, presuming the blade and lock bar are properly heat treated and hardend. All the major manufacturers of lockbacks seem to get that part right.
In addition, if the blade develops side to side play over time, that will affect a frame or liner lock. It will have no effect on a backlock.
 
maximus83 said:
....Also, I was a little confused by your mention of "compression back lock." Spyderco has compression locks (like PM2, Para 3), and also has back locks (native, some Manix, Chinook, others). Do you mean the back locks? I actually like both of these locking systems, a lot. One practical thing I like about the compression lock is it allows for an "open" simpler system that, similar to a frame lock, does not tend to trap as much gunk in the internals. I've found my PM2 to be safe and fairly easy to close one handed, and "strong enough" for the things I use it for.
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Sorry. I usually just say "back lock". I haven't owned a PM2 or Para and quite honestly am not that familiar with the locks on them. I've only handled them a couple of times in stores, but was always satisfied with the one hander I own now and the basic Spyderco back lock on the Native and other knives. I basically didn't want to spend the money. But the Para 3 appeals to me; I believe it is sized smaller than the Para 2 and about the same as the Delica which I like a lot. Just going from memory here. If I'm incorrect on the size, no big thing and I'll find out when I handle one again and compare side by side.
 
bdmicarta said:
It's not the OPENING that is a problem, it's the CLOSING. With Spyderco people tell me that if you hold your hand just right the blade will drop without cutting you. But what if you are on a ladder, or in the mud, or working under stress- maybe you can't hold your hand just right. And I've tried this with other knives with very similar designs and have the scars to prove it. With a lockback knife it's not a question of whether it will cut you or not, it's a question of how long can you get away with it before it cuts you.
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I don't have a problem closing a back lock knife; just press it and lean the knife against your leg. But if my hands are really cold or very dirty, that could be an issue. The closing part is why I tend to not care for the liner locks generally although I own more than a couple.
 
bdmicarta said:
It's not the OPENING that is a problem, it's the CLOSING. With Spyderco people tell me that if you hold your hand just right the blade will drop without cutting you. But what if you are on a ladder, or in the mud, or working under stress- maybe you can't hold your hand just right. And I've tried this with other knives with very similar designs and have the scars to prove it. With a lockback knife it's not a question of whether it will cut you or not, it's a question of how long can you get away with it before it cuts you.
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Again I will concede backlocks are not the easiest to close, maybe they're even the hardest, that could well be true. But I just don't think it's a big a deal as you're making it out to be.

I can close my backlocks one handed without me feeling like it's annoying or would be a problem. If I'm in such a bad/stressful situation where it would be a problem I don't see how closing a knife would be a priority concern.

If I was going to work on a ladder or somewhere I knew I often only had 1 hand I would carry a fixed blade every single time as I'm assuming it would be work related.

I would edc a fixed blade if I could, but people are already giving me weird looks when I pull out my folder, I can't imagine carrying fixed blade would be well received.
 
afishhunter said:
Yes, you are correct in that.
You are also correct in that when properly used, a lock is not necessary. Consider how many hundreds of years friction and slipjoints were used before a blade lock of any kind was invented. Most of those folk kept all their digits, and in many cases, used their knives just as hard or harder in their everyday tasks than we do today.

In answer to the OP's question, I prefer a backlock, such as that found on the Buck 110 and others of its ilk.
I am not fond of the mid-back lock, as the few I have handled seemed harder to release the lock. Probably has something to do with the leverage.
I have never seen a Buck 110, or Schrade 6OT/7OT/LB7 or similar have the lock fail under normal use. (which does not include stabbing some poor car)
I have seen frame lock and liner lock knives that did have the lock fail; after the fact. I do not know what they were doing when the lock failed. As far as I know, none of the owners of said knives lost any fingers, but a couple did get cut.
Frame locks and liner locks might fail if there is insufficient contact with the blade. I know some here on the forums have complained about the liner or frame lock just barely contacting the blade, and ask how to adjust it.
The backlock never has that problem. The lock bar fits into a notch in the tang. It is not going anywhere, presuming the blade and lock bar are properly heat treated and hardend. All the major manufacturers of lockbacks seem to get that part right.
In addition, if the blade develops side to side play over time, that will affect a frame or liner lock. It will have no effect on a backlock.
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I have seen a YouTube video about a Buck 482 that wasn't locking properly , but that turned out to be from pocket debris.
This could make a case against lockbacks in theory, but I for one would notice when I don't hear or feel that positive reassuring snap of the lockbar engaging.
The knife would also be feeling gritty at this point, I notice and clean out any pocket debris in my knife.
 
bdmicarta said:
It's not the OPENING that is a problem, it's the CLOSING. With Spyderco people tell me that if you hold your hand just right the blade will drop without cutting you. But what if you are on a ladder, or in the mud, or working under stress- maybe you can't hold your hand just right. And I've tried this with other knives with very similar designs and have the scars to prove it. With a lockback knife it's not a question of whether it will cut you or not, it's a question of how long can you get away with it before it cuts you.
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I don't like the practice of 'kicking down' or shaking the blade or hoping that it will fall just the right amount, so I end up avoiding back-locks that I cannot simply close one-handed:



This typed, I HAVE been bitten by closing a back-lock one-handed - it was the serrated Gerber Order seen in that video right when i made the video, and I was closing it left-handed while being a 'righty' :p My fault, especially when you consider that the Order has a half-stop AND a large choil to prevent such an occurrence.

However, I traded out using my CS Recon 1 as my main work-folder on the property in favor of a de-assisted Gerber Propel because the button-lock was just so much easier to use with gloved hands and without having to really re-orient how I was holding the knife. With the CS, i had to twist the knife in my hand to allow sufficient application of force on the lock-mechanism and then 'kick' it down or push it against something to get it started and then re-orient my hand to get my fingers out of the way (remember, I had to twist them into the way to allow me to depress the plunger) before finally swinging the blade fully closed. With the button lock, it's as easy to close as it is to open - just slide away your fingers, push the button right there on the side, and flick the blade away :thumbsup: The only thing easier is a double-action OTF, and I haven't pushed myself to use my little UTX-85 out on the property the way I used the CS or the Propel... yet ;)

Oh, and I've never had a problem with lint blocking the lock... or wood-chips, dirt, grass, flesh ... that may be luck.

I have few liner-locks because I just prefer other styles and do worry about the safety of the design in my use. Yes, I've had them slip on me or be either too easy or too difficult to disengage. *shrug* But a lot of really cool-looking knives have them!
 
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Today had a home that had a broken door handle latch, and it was really tight fit butting up to the striker plate. Probably why the latch broke. I was just going to pop the pins on the hinges of the door and slip door out of place. But some genius put tamper proof hinges that face the inside of the home instead of the outside. Not needed! So I did not want to cut off four hinges, and instead got a flat painters 14 in 1 tool and slipped in between door and frame and pried hard! Than slipped my code 4 in and pried the latch until I heard a snap! Which was the latch coming loose! The blade shape was perfect to wiggle in there and break it free. I should have been wearing gloves and I was dumb not to be but I know I would have been if I tried that with any other kind of folder locking mechanism.
 
I'm a fan of lockbacks. My first OHO knife, a Spyderco Delica, used that lock system, and I've become quite adept at closing it one handed.

I flirted with liner locks for a bit with some Benchmade tacticals, but decided that I didn't really trust that thin metal not to buckle at the wrong time, so I went back to lockbacks.

My current EDC folder is a Spyderco Dice, and it's my only framelock. I appreciate the ease of cleaning and the lock seems more reliable than a liner lock, but I'm not 100% sold yet.

Currently, I'm carrying a small Alan Davis custom fixed blade knife as my EDC when I'm not working, and I expect my future EDC knives to be more fixed blades.
 
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