Frame lock compared to back lock

[midnight flyer]

It always seems to get lost that they "locks" no matter what the mechanical device might be, are only safety features. They increase the likelihood of not having the blade close on your fingers or hand when using a knife improperly, or in case of an accident. I have been saved more than once by a lock in my work knives. Mostly, I find myself using the knife incorrectly when I slip on a ladder, in the mud or I misjudge the material I am cutting. Twisting the knife (and myself!) when slipping, sliding or falling, or pushing too hard on the knife is what causes my failures that make me glad I have lockers.

But it seems there are legions of folks that thing that a locker is nearly a fixed blade. They even brag about it. The best locks might not save those guys over a period of time.

BTW, the best advice I gave my nephew (proud recipient of a Benchmade mini-grip) is to use any knife like it is a slip joint. Always cut away from you, never twist the knife, don't pry with it, and keep it clean and sharp and you won't need to worry about "lockup". But should an accident or misfire on your part occur, you will be damn glad you had the safety feature.

So far, so good.

Robert

 

[Hickory n steel]

I don't have a problem closing a back lock knife; just press it and lean the knife against your leg. But if my hands are really cold or very dirty, that could be an issue. The closing part is why I tend to not care for the liner locks generally although I own more than a couple.

I don't have a problem with closing lockbacks either because I also use the leg technique, however not always because there's no reason for me to have to put my knife away quickly.

 

[unwisefool]

It's kind of expensive and I haven't seen anyone mention it, but take a look at Andrew Demko's scorpion lock on the ad15. Pretty strong and able to be closed with one hand.

 

[Zombie411]

It always seems to get lost that they "locks" no matter what the mechanical device might be, are only safety features. They increase the likelihood of not having the blade close on your fingers or hand when using a knife improperly, or in case of an accident. I have been saved more than once by a lock in my work knives. Mostly, I find myself using the knife incorrectly when I slip on a ladder, in the mud or I misjudge the material I am cutting. Twisting the knife (and myself!) when slipping, sliding or falling, or pushing too hard on the knife is what causes my failures that make me glad I have lockers.

But it seems there are legions of folks that thing that a locker is nearly a fixed blade. They even brag about it. The best locks might not save those guys over a period of time.

BTW, the best advice I gave my nephew (proud recipient of a Benchmade mini-grip) is to use any knife like it is a slip joint. Always cut away from you, never twist the knife, don't pry with it, and keep it clean and sharp and you won't need to worry about "lockup". But should an accident or misfire on your part occur, you will be damn glad you had the safety feature.

So far, so good.

Robert

Mr. Robert,
While I did not totally agree with the "improperly" used knife statement (too commonly used).
I do agree 100% with your closing statement...
"BTW, the best advice I gave my nephew (proud recipient of a Benchmade mini-grip) is to use any knife like it is a slip joint. Always cut away from you, never twist the knife, don't pry with it, and keep it clean and sharp and you won't need to worry about "lockup". But should an accident or misfire on your part occur, you will be damn glad you had the safety feature."

Nice way to phrase what is REALLY important! Nice work sir.

 

[B.F.U]

The frame lock is stronger and easier to maintain. But, neither knife should fail if you use it correctly, because you should never use a knife in a manner that loads heavy stress on a mechanical latch. For that kind of work, you should be using an appropriate fixed blade.

n2s

I just really don't buy the argument that a frame lock is generally stronger anymore. Easier to maintain; yeah, generally.

But why would it be stronger? It's usually titanium which is weaker than the steel that a back lock is usually made of. The relief or cutout usually makes the actual weak point be thinner than the average liner lock. And from experience the whole "your hand pressure keeps the lock from disengaging" thing is only true in a particular grip if you're squeezing hard.

I think it's marketing.

 

[Zombie411]

I just really don't buy the argument that a frame lock is generally stronger anymore. Easier to maintain; yeah, generally.

But why would it be stronger? It's usually titanium which is weaker than the steel that a back lock is usually made of. The relief or cutout usually makes the actual weak point be thinner than the average liner lock. And from experience the whole "your hand pressure keeps the lock from disengaging" thing is only true in a particular grip if you're squeezing hard.

I think it's marketing.

Absolutely yes... Marketing is an animal that consumes many of us.

Titanium actually never came into my mind in my preference. If TI is a major player then I would prefer a fixed blade. No doubt.

On topic however I was thinking of steel frames or at minimum Stainless frames.

 

[not2sharp]

For what its worth, the strongest lock that I recall seeing on a folder was the mechanism used on the post WWII U.S. Imperial Folding Machete. It was a massive liner lock with a heavy steel folding blade guard that seated itself within the handle as a secondary blade lock.

n2s

 

[Stays Sharp]

It's not the OPENING that is a problem, it's the CLOSING. With Spyderco people tell me that if you hold your hand just right the blade will drop without cutting you. But what if you are on a ladder, or in the mud, or working under stress- maybe you can't hold your hand just right. And I've tried this with other knives with very similar designs and have the scars to prove it. With a lockback knife it's not a question of whether it will cut you or not, it's a question of how long can you get away with it before it cuts you.

Thats fact and true for YOU and that's ok.

For some, that reasoning can be made for liner locks and many others... that you must do certain hand movements to close the folder safely with one hand. Think for a second, any lock method, you gotta go through steps to maintain safety one handed. Heck, with liner/frame locks, your fingers are in the blade's path everytime you disengage, and sure enough Im positive that you feel 100% confident in its safety...well, many Sal designed Spyderco backlocks are truly one handed operation for us users. Any situation, up Jack's beanstalk, chased by aliens, I can close an Endura without feeling like "It's a matter of when its gonna cut me". It is not any more unsafe as disengaging a liner/framelock towards your fingers with a split second to move them out of the way expecting nothing distrupts that motion. It becomes second nature.

Like you, I can afford any knives I want. Ive settled on Spyderco back locks because they allow maximum thinness and slim handle profiles: great in hand/great in pocket, strong time tested lock, one hand operation... and true left or right hand ambidextrous use... What if your up on a ladder in a do or die situation with your right hand unavailable and you have to open... use... AND close the knife with your left hand within ten seconds? It could be done.... Id do it quicker and probably get to retain my backlock while youd have to drop yours

 

[maximus83]

For folks noting that titanium can be soft/weak, two observations. First, I've had a ZT 0561 that I've used for over 5 years with a titanium lock bar, there's no wear that's affecting performance and no problem with the lockup. Sure it's a sample of 1, but I've used it heavily, and it is interesting to me that it's has not worn to the point that I can even notice it after all that time. It's also worth noting that designs keep evolving all the time. And in the case of frame locks, many designs have started adding a stainless steel insert to the lock bar to reduce the risk of wear on the titanium.

Like you, I can afford any knives I want. Ive settled on Spyderco back locks because they allow maximum thinness and slim handle profiles: great in hand/great in pocket, strong time tested lock, one hand operation... and true left or right hand ambidextrous use...

Good points about the advantages of the Spydie back lock. I really like mine, in fact considering getting the Manix 2 in the back lock version.

 

[BlakeHirschmugl]

I've always trusted frame locks more than back locks. Just feels stronger in my opinion. Although they're probably even when it comes to durability and strength, but if I didn't have a fixed blade handy and needed to use a folder, I'd gravitate toward a frame lock.
And they are easier to close one-handed than a back lock.

 

[NorseVet]

I've always trusted frame locks more than back locks. Just feels stronger in my opinion. Although they're probably even when it comes to durability and strength, but if I didn't have a fixed blade handy and needed to use a folder, I'd gravitate toward a frame lock.
And they are easier to close one-handed than a back lock.

Depending on make an model of course, but generally your assessment here is wrong. In multiple tests done by several different parties backlocks come out WAY ahead of framelocks in strength and durability, it's not even close really.

It's not an opinion either, it's pure fact. Like a 300 mph car is faster than a 150 mph car sort of fact.

Blade HQ have done several tests, Cold Steel have done tests and sal from spyderco have also said that framelocks and linerlocks are not as strong.

Hi Poodle,

We've gotten to the point where we can make most locks as strong as we plan for. The Lockback as seen on the Chinook (Manix & 83mm), the ball bearing, Compression and the new Stop-lock can be built into the Very Heavy Duty (MBC - 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length) range. We select materials and dimentions to meet the requirement we sedt for the model.

We've not been able to get Walker linerlocks or "framelocks" into that range due to the long spring.......yet. But we're still developing.

I think most locks can be made to be strong and reliable if the manufacturer extends the effort.

sal

Fair enough if you prefer framelocks for their ease of use and if you find them more aesthetically pleasing, but it's just wrong to say they're stronger than backlocks and certainly not the tougher ones like the tri-ad. Strong enough? Most likely, but stronger? No.

 

[Lapedog]

I think the whole "grip reinforces a frame lock" is a way over played. Certain frame locks this may be the case but not all. You really have to hold the knife and make a judgement on how your fingers/hand contact the lock bar. Some knives I found in my grip the only thing touching the lock bar was a little *pooch* of finger flesh. I've also tested a few frame locks to get them to slip and the lock bar simply pushes into your flesh allowing the blade to release. We're talking about fleshy human hands. How far can you push into your flesh? More than enough for a lock bar to clear a tang. Now you can hold your knife so that your hand/fingers are really pressing on the lock bar but who uses a knife white-knuckling it the entire time?

That being said both back locks and frame locks are good enough for me. Currently I'm more into back locks but that's because my newest knife is a back lock.

Agree 100% Until I see proof otherwise I consider this to be largely a myth. Most knives my fingers are barely putting pressure on the lockbar with a normal grip. I wonder how much that will stop an unexpected force that suddenly say falls on the spine. I think if it will break the lock then how much is my regular strength grip, where on most knives the lockbar sits in the crook of my fingers, really going to help?

 

[stabman]

Agree 100% Until I see proof otherwise I consider this to be largely a myth.

Like I said before, I tested it myself with a knife that that the lock didn't work on, on it's own.
With my grip, I was able to lift a 20 (or 40...I forget which) pound weight with the blade.

So it is definitely not a myth.
I won't be bothering to find another busted frame-lock to prove it again though.
I know it is true, and even if I provided video evidence with ten witnesses signing statements while holding photo ID in the background, it would continue to be considered a myth in the weird world that is the internet.

 

[jbmonkey]

Like I said before, I tested it myself with a knife that that the lock didn't work on, on it's own.
With my grip, I was able to lift a 20 (or 40...I forget which) pound weight with the blade.

So it is definitely not a myth.
I won't be bothering to find another busted frame-lock to prove it again though.
I know it is true, and even if I provided video evidence with ten witnesses signing statements while holding photo ID in the background, it would continue to be considered a myth in the weird world that is the internet.

i think the argument is when cutting its not always easy to hold a super firm grip on the frame lockbar. not that it cant be done, more so it isnt always convenient depending on the task and angles position etc.

so basically y'all are debating different angles of the topic

 

[BlakeHirschmugl]

Depending on make an model of course, but generally your assessment here is wrong. In multiple tests done by several different parties backlocks come out WAY ahead of framelocks in strength and durability, it's not even close really.

It's not an opinion either, it's pure fact. Like a 300 mph car is faster than a 150 mph car sort of fact.

Blade HQ have done several tests, Cold Steel have done tests and sal from spyderco have also said that framelocks and linerlocks are not as strong.



Fair enough if you prefer framelocks for their ease of use and if you find them more aesthetically pleasing, but it's just wrong to say they're stronger than backlocks and certainly not the tougher ones like the tri-ad. Strong enough? Most likely, but stronger? No.

Really? Learn something new everyday, I guess. Yeah, I don't doubt the facts, since you've done the research. I was just talking from personal preference.

 

[NorseVet]

Really? Learn something new everyday, I guess. Yeah, I don't doubt the facts, since you've done the research. I was just talking from personal preference.

No worry, I'm sure your knives are just as good now as they were before you read my post.

 

[Pericles]

I agree with the statements that most modern locking mechanisms are strong enough for any reasonable task when properly executed, and that the best way to ensure the safety of your own fingers is to use the knife as if it didn't have a lock.

Because, most of our knives don't have locks*, they have latches.

Consider this analogy:

When I close the door behind me, it isn't locked, it is latched.
I can throw the deadbolt to lock it, but I have to do this myself, whereas the latch actuates automatically when the door is closed,
just as a knife latch will actuate automatically when the knife is opened.
If the door is properly latched, I can't pass through it by pushing on either side: I must turn the door knob... or kick the door open.
It is probably easier to kick the door open if it is only latched and not dead-bolted, but this is the wrong way to open the door,
and often a forced door will fail at the frame rather than the locking hardware.
If you need your door to withstand the heartiest of kicks and even battering rams, what you actually want is a wall.

Of course, the frame and lockset on an exterior door will probably be more robust than on a bedroom, and even more so on a bank vault,
but the first two types of door are still generally optimized for ease of access and the third actively discourages it.
A knife, like a door, should be appropriate to the application.

After edge geometry and ergonomics, ease of safe operation of the latch is the most important consideration for me in choosing a folder.
This is why I prefer most mechanisms, including slipjoints, to backlocks.
Ease of maintenance is also an important consideration, and in this regard I find framelocks and similar open- construction designs superior to backlocks.
I can see if a framelock is safely engaged and free of debris, whereas the mechanism of a backlock is concealed.

Although I have had a poorly made lockback fail on me in the closing direction (no blood thankfully),
I'm not overly concerned with the strength of any modern mechanism,
as any well-made latching folder has enough inbuilt safety to protect anyone who knows how to operate a typical door.


*Some folders have secondary locking mechanisms, which function similarly to a deadbolt.
I have one, on my Real Steel E571. Like the Lionsteel Rotoblock, it is incorporated into the over-travel stop, and blocks the framelock from disengaging.
It is a feature I never use, but since it is built into a useful feature and doesn't impede function I don't mind that it's there.

 

[klute]

I've become obsessive about cleaning out my pocket lint when I put on a freshly cleaned pair of jeans.
I've never witnessed lint foil a lock but I've heard about it over the years.
At the least it's more dust to clean off the knife.

Haha me too. I have taken to turning the pockets inside out before the wash in order to clean them.