Frame lock question: lock failure or needs breaking in? (with video)

gooeytek said:
weak lockbar pressure? try bending the lockbar in further, and if still nogo, then warranty.
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Just tried this - it doesn't move in further and fails just as easily.
To make things worse I found a position from which the lock fails even easier.

Either way, I'm waiting now the e-shop support to get back to me. Will keep this thread posted.

Just for the reference, the lockup is at 35-40%, which isn't too early as I understand. Here's the closeup:

nERok1x.jpg
 
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My 560 did exactly the same thing. I returned it to Kai and they replaced the entire lock side of the knife.

As noted by others, I would try to exchange it at your dealer or get them to send it in for repair/replacement. If this is not possible, I would then send it yourself.
 
ivanhoe said:
Just tried this - it doesn't move in further and fails just as easily.
To make things worse I found a position from which the lock fails even easier.

Either way, I'm waiting now the e-shop support to get back to me. Will keep this thread posted.

Just for the reference, the lockup is at 35-40%, which isn't too early as I understand. Here's the closeup:

nERok1x.jpg
Click to expand...

It looks like the lock bar face is deformed. Maybe it's not the correct hardness. Send it back.
 
That does appear to be one of the most thoroughly jacked up lock faces I've ever seen, but the more you make it fail the worse it'll get. Sounds like you're doing the right thing with trying the dealer route first, hope you keep us updated!
 
The lock can only fail like that if the angle of the interface between the lock bar and blade is wrong. From the picture, it looks like there is a lump in the middle of the lock bar face which is causing the problem. The knife is defective and should be replaced.
 
I have had the same problem with two knives, both liner locks, one a custom. I tried flicking them, roughing up the lock face, polishing it with flitz, using graphite and CRL grease on the lock face. They all got better and are fine now. However I can't really say what fixed it. With the custom, I got mad, put it in a box for awhile, contacted the maker after a couple of months, he said send it in. I took it out and it was fine and never slipped again. I called the maker and we got a good chuckle over my "magic box" that fixes knives. With the production, it started working after a flitz clean of the lock face, CRK grease and some strong flicks.
 
This is not a problem with ZT quality. The problem is that frame locks and liner locks are simply a flawed design. I find it astonishing knife buyers are still convinced these things are strong. They are neither strong nor reliable yet they continue to be used even on custom knives costing hundreds of dollars.
Have you ever seen a thread where a high quality lock back design could be folded with just hand pressure? NOPE! How many new Buck 110's do you think you would have to open up to find one that would fold this easily? How about Spyderco Endura's?
How often have you seen a Cold Steel Tri-AD lock close this easily?

Op, just needs to send it back to ZT and get it fixed to the extent that it is possible.
 
precisionshootist said:
This is not a problem with ZT quality. The problem is that frame locks and liner locks are simply a flawed design. I find it astonishing knife buyers are still convinced these things are strong. They are neither strong nor reliable yet they continue to be used even on custom knives costing hundreds of dollars.
Have you ever seen a thread where a high quality lock back design could be folded with just hand pressure? NOPE! How many new Buck 110's do you think you would have to open up to find one that would fold this easily? How about Spyderco Endura's?
How often have you seen a Cold Steel Tri-AD lock close this easily?

Op, just needs to send it back to ZT and get it fixed to the extent that it is possible.
Click to expand...

The face of his lock bar appears to be a stick of butter painted to look like titanium. That kind of deformation should be impossible unless you are using the force of a hydraulic press. I have had at least 100 frame and liner locks, and none that failed like this. This problem is similar to having hand tight nuts on your car's wheels... all the proper equipment is there, it just wasn't treated properly.

This is not indicative of some inherent flaw in the frame lock design, it is just a bad part. All locks have had atrocious failures occur, it just happens to liner and frame locks the most because they make up the largest portion of the market (and a lot of the market consists of knives of highly dubious quality). A properly executed frame or liner lock will never do this unless it has literally been worn out or been tampered with.
 
precisionshootist said:
This is not a problem with ZT quality. The problem is that frame locks and liner locks are simply a flawed design. I find it astonishing knife buyers are still convinced these things are strong. They are neither strong nor reliable yet they continue to be used even on custom knives costing hundreds of dollars.
Have you ever seen a thread where a high quality lock back design could be folded with just hand pressure? NOPE! How many new Buck 110's do you think you would have to open up to find one that would fold this easily? How about Spyderco Endura's?
How often have you seen a Cold Steel Tri-AD lock close this easily?

Op, just needs to send it back to ZT and get it fixed to the extent that it is possible.
Click to expand...
Now this thread will get interesting.
Popcorn time.
 
Properly designed and made liner locks and frame locks are plenty strong. That they are flawed or weak is a myth at best. There is plenty of research that discards the theory that a liner lock is any weaker than a lockback. In fact there is research that shows the opposite. Granted the locks have to be done correctly and they often are not so much. That is what has created this myth.
 
jbmonkey said:
Properly designed and made liner locks and frame locks are plenty strong. That they are flawed or weak is a myth at best. There is plenty of research that discards the theory that a liner lock is any weaker than a lockback. In fact there is research that shows the opposite. Granted the locks have to be done correctly and they often are not so much. That is what has created this myth.
Click to expand...

Sorry my post sounded so negative but I'm getting tired of seeing knives that I would otherwise like if it were not for the frame/liner lock. I remain convinced. This IS a flawed design that needs to go away for so called hard use knives. You said yourself "properly made and designed" and there lies the problem. They must be made perfect or they are not reliable. Michael walker even stated there is no "correct" angle that can simply be duplicated. For each knife with this type lock the correct lock angle varies with blade length, thickness, hardness, frame material, and on and on. In other words "properly made" involves hand fitting and a little voodoo or it may not work properly. That is the description of a flawed design.
 
precisionshootist said:
Sorry my post sounded so negative but I'm getting tired of seeing knives that I would otherwise like if it were not for the frame/liner lock. I remain convinced. This IS a flawed design that needs to go away for so called hard use knives. You said yourself "properly made and designed" and there lies the problem. They must be made perfect or they are not reliable. Michael walker even stated there is no "correct" angle that can simply be duplicated. For each knife with this type lock the correct lock angle varies with blade length, thickness, hardness, frame material, and on and on. In other words "properly made" involves hand fitting and a little voodoo or it may not work properly. That is the description of a flawed design.
Click to expand...

Despite this, those that function correctly are the norm rather than the exception. Nearly all of my knives have been liner or frame locks. Zero have had issues. This includes a $35 Spyderco Persistence that was daily carried and used to the point where blade centering and action are messed up. Still locks up tightly.
 
That's too bad, especially since it may be a hassle to get it sent back for warranty. However, I'm sure ZT would make it right. Seems we can't go a day without someone having issues with a frame/liner lock knife. I agree with others that when done RIGHT they are fine, and certainly most of them have no issues, but we see FAR more problems with frame locks than any other lock type.

Over the last 2-3 years I bet I've handled 15+ frame lock knives with vertical blade play/lock rock etc. whatever you want to call it all priced from $250-500 from very well respected companies/makers. None of them failed like these videos showed, but you could feel play when locked open by just trying to rock the handle and holding the blade. Honestly it makes me question buying any frame lock knife without handing it first anymore.

One thing I will say is the knives I've gotten recently with a lock bar inserts from various companies have all been rock solid, could be just coincidence, and when they first came out I thought the inserts were a solution looking for a problem in terms of lock bar wear, but perhaps it's allowing better consistency in lock up.
 
ivanhoe said:
Just tried this - it doesn't move in further and fails just as easily.
To make things worse I found a position from which the lock fails even easier.

Either way, I'm waiting now the e-shop support to get back to me. Will keep this thread posted.

Just for the reference, the lockup is at 35-40%, which isn't too early as I understand. Here's the closeup:

nERok1x.jpg
Click to expand...


the only framelocks ive ever seen with a lockface that boogered up were after the owner continually forced the knife to close over and over again with spinewhacks and such. the worst being a Tuff that probably would have broke in properly if it hadn't had the lock "defeated" dozens and dozens of times to prove it was a "flawed" knife right outta the box.
 
Lee D said:
the only framelocks ive ever seen with a lockface that boogered up were after the owner continually forced the knife to close over and over again with spinewhacks and such. the worst being a Tuff that probably would have broke in properly if it hadn't had the lock "defeated" dozens and dozens of times to prove it was a "flawed" knife right outta the box.
Click to expand...

Nope in my case. I haven't been purposefully trying to "defeat" the lock. No spine whacking / batoning / wrist flicking or any abusive treatment.
I was way too careful with handling this one, simply because I wasn't sure how much will Ti wear over time.

The only test I did was with my hands like shown in the video. That's way below any threshold of lock strength.
 
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The lock face does look messed up, can't tell from that angle, have you taken it apart and scrubbed that spot to make sure its not gunked up? I've had a couple of frame locks that were initially weak like that after I took them apart and bent the lock bar in a little more to apply more pressure when open they worked fine and locked up solid. They however did not have that weird lump in the middle of the lock face though.
 
cricketdave said:
The lock face does look messed up, can't tell from that angle, have you taken it apart and scrubbed that spot to make sure its not gunked up? I've had a couple of frame locks that were initially weak like that after I took them apart and bent the lock bar in a little more to apply more pressure when open they worked fine and locked up solid. They however did not have that weird lump in the middle of the lock face though.
Click to expand...

I was actually thinking about that, but it would void the warranty. I'm now waiting the online store to get back to me and see if they can take care of this.
 
precisionshootist said:
Sorry my post sounded so negative but I'm getting tired of seeing knives that I would otherwise like if it were not for the frame/liner lock. I remain convinced. This IS a flawed design that needs to go away for so called hard use knives. You said yourself "properly made and designed" and there lies the problem. They must be made perfect or they are not reliable. Michael walker even stated there is no "correct" angle that can simply be duplicated. For each knife with this type lock the correct lock angle varies with blade length, thickness, hardness, frame material, and on and on. In other words "properly made" involves hand fitting and a little voodoo or it may not work properly. That is the description of a flawed design.
Click to expand...

The same is true with lockbacks though. Properly made and designed. Ive had a few cheap lockbacks over the years that failed. I see your point....and its a good one. ...but.....

Anything that isn't done properly can and may fail. There is no magic lock that is invincible....except for maybe the tri-ad lock.;) that lock is strong.

Back to.the ops issue. That lock bar is deformed/ peened. Why is the question?
 
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