Frame lock question: lock failure or needs breaking in? (with video)

stonproject · Mar 8, 2015

RBid said:
I live in the PNW and used to manage Starbucks stores. Sadly, putting down the coffee is not an option. Up here, even Yo Grandma drinks the stuff like the end is coming.

i also live in the pacific northwest and youre not kiddin. Ive been drinkin espresso since my teens.

cricketdave · Mar 8, 2015

This is what the lock looks like on mine Ivanhoe

precisionshootist · Mar 8, 2015

OP: can you explain what is the blob on the top of the lock that everyone is seeing? Is that part of the lock bar or could that just be a blob of pocket lint? You can't tell from the pic.

RX-79G · Mar 8, 2015

precisionshootist said:
This is not a problem with ZT quality. The problem is that frame locks and liner locks are simply a flawed design. I find it astonishing knife buyers are still convinced these things are strong. They are neither strong nor reliable yet they continue to be used even on custom knives costing hundreds of dollars.
Have you ever seen a thread where a high quality lock back design could be folded with just hand pressure? NOPE! How many new Buck 110's do you think you would have to open up to find one that would fold this easily? How about Spyderco Endura's?
How often have you seen a Cold Steel Tri-AD lock close this easily?

Op, just needs to send it back to ZT and get it fixed to the extent that it is possible.

I find it astonishing that you can make a statement like this - the OPs lock is failing in a way that has nothing to do with strength, and it is not a failure mode that liner and frame locks normally show. They usually bend and fail locked open, with the lock wedged too far.

On topic:
Looking at both Dave and the OP's pictures makes me wonder why the engagement surface on the blade itself has so much angle. Most liner/frame locks I've ever looked at use an angle just a hair beyond perpendicular to the locked lockbar angle. I don't know why ZT is using such a steep angle - especially since it would contribute to this type of problem. To my eye, these ZTs are set 4 to 8 degrees more than other well established lock angles. Walker has even commented that many companies do not seem to understand how to establish these angles.

Here's some typical ones. Look at how shallow the engagement angle on the blade steel is compared to the posted ZTs:

flarp · Mar 8, 2015

The lock bar does look kinda funky in that close-up pic. As has been said... send it back to the dealer, and have them exchange it for another.

whitty · Mar 9, 2015

If the knife is brand new and has not been in the owners possession for a long time then back to the dealer it needs to go. Either for a full refund or for an exchange. You have to give the dealer a chance to make it right. If you have had the knife for more than a month or so then I think you are stuck shipping it back to KAI. The good news is it should only cost you shipping there, they should cover shipping back!

Screwdriver · Mar 10, 2015

asdf12345 said:
Ehhh, yours is probably just a "lemon" that "slipped" through "quality control". It's not ZT's fault at all so don't get the wrong idea. When they say "built like a tank" they mean it and if it's not built like a tank, don't worry yourself one bit because they'll make your wrong knife right! ZT's still awesome and so are framelocks. This is a non-issue and I hope you don't have an axe to grind with ZT. By the way no pics no proof... as they like to say.

Yeah.....It is their fault. They built the knife, QC'd it etc. If the owners had this failure that then resulted in loosing a finger, who do you think the liability would fall on?

ivanhoe · Mar 11, 2015

precisionshootist said:
OP: can you explain what is the blob on the top of the lock that everyone is seeing? Is that part of the lock bar or could that just be a blob of pocket lint? You can't tell from the pic.

It doesn't look like pocket lint; it's hard and is part of the lock.
Maybe a weird carbidizing job?

I'm still waiting for the response from the dealer. Will keep you guys posted.

ivanhoe · May 3, 2015

UPDATE

1. Store fixed the lockbar and it now appears to be working fine. However, they lied to me saying that KAI fixed the knife.
Store fixed it on their own and sent it back to me.

2. ZT/KAI was professional and very helpful. I double checked with them if they repaired my knife and they confirmed that they didn't.
They suggested that I send it to them for a checkup, but that will cost me $20-25 for shipping (one direction), will take several weeks, and I'm not sure if shipping it back to me will be straightforward.

At this point I have a working knife, but I'm not sure if I should trust/keep it.
Here's a closeup of the fixed lockbar: http://i.imgur.com/zyQWuOR.jpg

Should I just keep the knife or go through the hassle and send it back to KAI?
What do you guys think?

skyhorse · May 3, 2015

I think the store has some explaining to do.

Jens Schuetz · May 3, 2015

ivanhoe said:
UPDATE

1. Store fixed the lockbar and it now appears to be working fine. However, they lied to me saying that KAI fixed the knife.
Store fixed it on their own and sent it back to me.

2. ZT/KAI was professional and very helpful. I double checked with them if they repaired my knife and they confirmed that they didn't.
They suggested that I send it to them for a checkup, but that will cost me $20-25 for shipping (one direction), will take several weeks, and I'm not sure if shipping it back to me will be straightforward.

At this point I have a working knife, but I'm not sure if I should trust it.
Here's a closeup of the fixed lockbar: http://i.imgur.com/zyQWuOR.jpg

Should I just keep the knife or go through the hassle and send it back to KAI?
What do you guys think?

Send it to KAI and ask the shop owner to pay for the shipping.
Maybe he weasels out since you can't prove what he promised you.
Wouldn't be surprised since they already lied to you once

ivanhoe · May 3, 2015

skyhorse said:
I think the store has some explaining to do.

I doubt they would care, unless it's something that requires their action.

Jens Schuetz said:
Maybe he weasels out since you can't prove what he promised you.
Wouldn't be surprised since they already lied to you once

I have their emails where they directly said that the knife is being shipped to/from KAI.

It's quite surprising because this is not a one person store, and they are reputable here.
They sell a lot of high end stuff, such as unique CRKs, unique Spydercos, Medfords and limited edition ZTs.

Gut feeling says that the right thing to do is to press them; say that I will report them and post experience in all local forums unless they come with a solution.
But part of me is sick of dealing with this. It took 2 months so far.

I just wanted to see what you guys think and if you have been in a similar situation.

jazub · May 3, 2015

What a shady store. I would report their name and behavior to KAI and on forums now and return knife to KAI to fix. Pain but that way the workmanship is settled/waranteed and the shop doesn't get away with that behavior.

Bummer to see another of these ZT videos. I had been considering a 452cf as my first but the rising number of serious/dangerous QC complaints here have nixed that idea.

skyhorse · May 3, 2015

whitty said:
If the knife is brand new and has not been in the owners possession for a long time then back to the dealer it needs to go. Either for a full refund or for an exchange.

This is what a reputable dealer would do.

ivanhoe · May 25, 2015

Finally got it settled.
They said that the employee(s) were "confused" and made a mistake by saying the ZT fixed it. I think this is a blatant lie, but no way to check.
They didn't want to ship it back to ZT, but offered either a refund or replacement.

Here's the result:

I checked it in and out and so far everything seems to be perfect: F&F, lockup, smoothness and even the grind

I'll try to get a ZT as well though. I was honestly impressed with their customer service and think such efforts should be rewarded.

Lastly, BIG THANKS to everyone who posted in this thread. Who knows what would have happened during use if I didn't send it back.
You guys were of immense help!

trevitrace · May 25, 2015

Spyderco takes the match.

emtyhopper · May 25, 2015

Great choice!

whitty · May 25, 2015

ivanhoe said:
Finally got it settled.
They said that the employee(s) were "confused" and made a mistake by saying the ZT fixed it. I think this is a blatant lie, but no way to check.
They didn't want to ship it back to ZT, but offered either a refund or replacement.

Here's the result:

I checked it in and out and so far everything seems to be perfect: F&F, lockup, smoothness and even the grind

I'll try to get a ZT as well though. I was honestly impressed with their customer service and think such efforts should be rewarded.

Lastly, BIG THANKS to everyone who posted in this thread. Who knows what would have happened during use if I didn't send it back.
You guys were of immense help!

I am glad the store eventually got it right. Great choice with Spyderco, they make an awesome knife.

With that said, I am sad that you have a bad taste in your mouth for Zero Tolerance knives. ZT makes an incredible knife. Just like any mechanical product, sometimes there are mistakes off the assembly line. I think most dealers try to catch them but sometimes they do get through. I would say with ZT it is less than 1 percent. Trust me when I say, that is above average for most of the major production knife makers. If you are interested in giving Zero Tolerance another try, I would love to be of help. Shoot me an email at any time and I will see what we can do to make you happy carrying a ZT again!

Whitty
scott@usamadeblade.com

EChoil · May 25, 2015

timberweasel said:
When you have early lock up, I think that it takes just a very small difference in tang and lock face angle to cause slippage. The same difference biased in the other direction would cause a lockbar under pressure to seat deeper along the tang--which is how a frame or liner lock is supposed to behave, imo.

I have an Emerson Horseman that I bought NIB (a liner lock but operates on the same principle.) When I got it, the ti liner was a little sticky so I did the ol' graphite on the tang trick. As I was breaking it in, the liner would slip off the tang with very little pressure on the thumb ramp and the blade would want to close--exactly in the same way as shown in the videos linked by the OP. I debated whether or not I should return it, but in the end I held onto it and kept playing with it.

It took a while, but eventually the lock stick went away and the knife now locks up rock solid. It sure was disappointing to have this issue with a brand new knife, but I have every confidence that I would have gotten a repair/replacement from either the vendor or manufacturer if I had decided to return it.

-Brett

Agree with everything you say....

...but Emersons are their own animal when it comes to tweaking and break-in, as you no doubt know. Most knives you expect to work pretty much perfectly right out of the box. ZT is no exception. Everything you describe with your Emerson is, to me, normal for the brand.

My own experience with Emersons would have me say, "Don't worry about it, it will adjust in." But with most brands it's usually not that way. I can't tell whether his "problem" is just early lockup or something truly serious. Emerson is the only knife where I trust early lockup 100%.

Know what I mean?

asdf12345 · May 25, 2015

EChoil said:
Agree with everything you say....

...but Emersons are their own animal when it comes to tweaking and break-in, as you no doubt know. Most knives you expect to work pretty much perfectly right out of the box. ZT is no exception. Everything you describe with your Emerson is, to me, normal for the brand.

My own experience with Emersons would have me say, "Don't worry about it, it will adjust in." But with most brands it's usually not that way. I can't tell whether his "problem" is just early lockup or something truly serious. Emerson is the only knife where I trust early lockup 100%.

Know what I mean?

As a side note, I wouldn't trust early lockup on any knife if there's graphite or sharpie on the tang. Lock stick is annoying but taking that stick away and having an early lockup is not a good idea.

And there have definitely been Emersons with early lockup whose locks could be defeated by hand pressure. Early lockup isn't as secure, no matter what brand.